Possibility So you wish to say that you are confident without warrant... Fine. It's the "without warrant" part that is salient here.

your point being...?
— Possibility
Here's the argument in the article, in less than twenty words: add warrant to belief and knowledge; faith is belief that is neither warranted nor known. No reference to tradition. — Banno

Ok, I’m with you now.

I agree with Dawkins that faith, as an irrevocable commitment, is not reasonable when given to a false proposition. But I see nothing unreasonable in believers having the degree of commitment to their church, synagogue or mosque that they might have to a political party or social community.
It is the degree of commitment involved in faith, rather than its religious object, that is what is really objectionable;

@Banno
This is a combination of bad philosophy and poor understanding of religion:

I agree with Dawkins that faith, as an irrevocable commitment, is not reasonable when given to a false proposition.

Do we even need to explore what that statement is supposed to mean?

Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of faith as interpreted within certain (most) Christian traditions. The idea that faith is an unshakeable authority... — Possibility

That's not what I said. Faith is unshakable conviction that some claim or another(many usually) is true. True believers have it. All of them. That goes for fundamentalist(literalists) and others alike.

Authority does play a role in this, for unshakable trust in the truthfulness of God's Word is taught to be aspired towards, honored, exalted, and revered... in spite of any and all 'worldly' claims to the contrary.

That dissolves the earlier notion of intersubjective/subjective...

All religious belief is adopted. Edited to add:Well, strictly speaking that is clearly not true. I mean, someone somewhere had to come up with it first. But, aside from that, the point stands. Even moreso, the first beliefs served to fill in the gaps in the people's knowledge base about the way things are, were, and/or will be.

So, after knowledge to the contrary was acquired concerning those beliefs, to maintain the previous religious explanations for what's happened, was happening at the time, or will happen later(than that time) was a matter of(was to demonstrate one's own) faith.

Noah's ark...

The parting of the Red Sea...

The second coming of Christ...

Jonah and the whale...

Job - now there's a story about faith!

Faith is unshakable conviction — creativesoul

I don't know why you think that. Faith is frequently shaken, lost, regained, etc. It can be strong or weak. So?

All religious belief is adopted. — creativesoul

Eh, for the majority of religious people in human history, faith wasn't much of an issue. You believed Zeus lives on a mountain because that's what the wise people said.

You're putting a microscope on a quirky aspect of Christianity.

Eh, for the majority of religious people in human history, faith wasn't much of an issue. You believed Zeus lives on a mountain because that's what the wise people said. — frank

Think about that.

Think about that. — creativesoul

Yea. It's fascinating.

You're putting a microscope on a quirky aspect of Christianity. — frank

I'm not saying that all religious belief is held with unshakable conviction. Indeed, one point of the paper is to draw and maintain a distinction between faith and religious belief. How else to do that if not putting a microscope upon faith?

It presupposes the existence of Zeus. It shows the role of authority throughout history as it pertains to religious belief. It shows that religious belief is not in it's own category. It shows that most - near all - religious belief is learned and it leads us to...

...consider the source.

Indeed, the very point of the paper is to drawn and maintain a distinction between faith and religious belief. — creativesoul

There are a number of fantastic scholars of religion to rely on. Save the dubious speculation.

It presupposes the existence of Zeus. It shows the role of authority throughout history as it pertains to religious belief. It shows that religious belief is not in it's own category. It shows that most - near all - religious belief is learned and it leads us to...

...consider the source. — creativesoul

I don't know what you're trying to say.

Faith is unshakable conviction
— creativesoul

I don't know why you think that. Faith is frequently shaken, lost, regained, etc. It can be strong or weak. — frank

You think that this somehow contradicts what counts as faith? What's lost, shaken, or regained?

When it is lost or shaken, is it unshakable?

No.

If one has unshakable conviction, then they have faith. If they do not, they do not have faith.

Hence... as a matter of the highest merit, one will refuse all evidence to the contrary, as a means to show and/or demonstrate their faith.

Do we even need to explore what that statement is supposed to mean? — frank

Well, yes. You might learn something.

Well, yes. You might learn something. — Banno

Oh good. What does it mean?

It presupposes the existence of Zeus. It shows the role of authority throughout history as it pertains to religious belief. It shows that religious belief is not in it's own category. It shows that most - near all - religious belief is learned and it leads us to...

...consider the source.
— creativesoul

I don't know what you're trying to say. — frank

Religious belief is no different to any other about what's happened, is happening, and/or will happen.

It's not reasonable to be certain of stuff that is false.

Indeed, the very point of the paper is to drawn and maintain a distinction between faith and religious belief.
— creativesoul

There are a number of fantastic scholars of religion to rely on. — frank

Like the wise men?

Hence... as a matter of the highest merit, one will refuse all evidence to the contrary, as a means to show and/or demonstrate their faith. — creativesoul

This is an example of an embryonic religion. It's similar in many ways to early Christianity. What role is faith playing here?

"For years, believers of QAnon have been waiting for "The Storm," a day of reckoning foretold by Q during which these elites would be exposed, rounded up and possibly even executed. It seemed "The Storm" was always just around the corner.
Lily's father frantically called her days before the inauguration, imploring her to come home for her safety, she said. Her parents were so sure Q's predictions were going to come true.
But then Biden became president and nothing happened.
Lily hoped that her family would finally return to her after Biden's inauguration.
Her parents have reasoned away why Q's predictions didn't come true. "They blame themselves for not understanding what Q meant," she said. "For not being smart enough to be able to know what really is going to happen."
Now Lily, like others who have lost loved ones to QAnon, is left wondering how to move forward."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/12/tech/qanon-followers-family-lost-loved-ones/index.html

It's not reasonable to be certain of stuff that is false. — Banno

If you don't know it's false, it could be entirely reasonable. Depends.

Like the wise men? — creativesoul

They're scholars.

Let's just say that I'm uniquely qualified to assess faith. I've seen it up close and personal. I've lived in it's immediate presence. I've watched it used as a means to condone completely unacceptable things like the behaviour/treatment of others. I've watched it used as a means to condemn helpful, well-intended, inclusive, respectful, but different people and world-views. Indeed, to this day, faith rears it's ugly head in many a conversation I have with certain family members, to their own detriment because having it has caused them to be far more confused, and angry at all the wrong people and things than need be.

Frank, yep.

See the word "know" in "If you don't know it's false"?

Where'd it come from?

But, hey, seems you understood what was said. Well done.

They're scholars — frank

Use them then. By all means...

Quote these scholars on faith in the sense we're discussing here. The term is also used as a synonym to a belief system(denominations). That sense isn't under examination. I do think that Janus has been equivocating the senses though. No fault, just pointing out a potential point of confusion, and/or miscommunication.

"For years, believers of QAnon have been waiting for "The Storm," a day of reckoning foretold by Q during which these elites would be exposed, rounded up and possibly even executed. It seemed "The Storm" was always just around the corner.
Lily's father frantically called her days before the inauguration, imploring her to come home for her safety, she said. Her parents were so sure Q's predictions were going to come true.
But then Biden became president and nothing happened.
Lily hoped that her family would finally return to her after Biden's inauguration.
Her parents have reasoned away why Q's predictions didn't come true. "They blame themselves for not understanding what Q meant," she said. "For not being smart enough to be able to know what really is going to happen."
Now Lily, like others who have lost loved ones to QAnon, is left wondering how to move forward." — frank

Yes. Exactly!

We have some agreement.

In my view, this ‘evil’ is more the cornerstone of institutionalised religion. — Possibility

Kenny sets out faith in terms of adherence to "acceptance of the testimony of a sacred text or of a religious community" - top p.394.

I would drive the nail deeper and suggest that no sooner are religious notions articulated than they become false. This also follows from such talk being understood as metaphor.

Yes. Exactly! — creativesoul

Why is their faith so strong?

What role is faith playing here? — frank

This is a good question.

Her parents have reasoned away why Q's predictions didn't come true. — frank

That's the role faith plays. The reasoning away...

Why is their faith so strong? — frank

That's a psychological question. I would say that there's much more to learn by seeking to answer how it became so unshakable.

That's a psychological question. I would say that there's much more to learn by seeking to answer how it became so unshakable? — creativesoul

Q is providing them with revelations about secret truths. Q promises that a great day of reckoning will come soon and a great evil will be dealt with.

This is Christianity before Jesus died. Jesus was supposed to bring about this great reckoning, just as Trump was supposed to "save the children"

After Jesus died, his followers could have walked away, but instead they just fell deeper into it. It had become part of their identities. They couldn't let go of their hope and face a grey world of despair. They were locked in.

QAnon is going through this now. They're trying to transform. If they don't get a 'Paul' the phenomenon will fade out.

This is sort of beyond regular psychology because this same scenario predates Christianity. It's been happening for millennia. Scholars say it's a unique aspect of Indo-European cultures.

Those who believe they've been persecuted, perhaps, will believe that there will come a day of reckoning, when the persecution stops?

In today's modern age, the persecuted may take the 'form' of poor people(Americans) who know that something is inherently deeply wrong with the government in that it's supposed to be making decisions based upon their best interest, but it's clearly not been successful in doing so. Combine that with a deep-seated warranted belief that politicians(most anyway) are dishonest about what's actually motivating their own decision making(public policy), and you have fertile soil to sew the seeds...

Trump was/is looked at as a savior... because of those poor people's faith.

Combine that with a deep-seated warranted belief that politicians(most anyway) are dishonest about what's actually motivating their own decision making(public policy) — creativesoul

Pharisees. So if you understand QAnon, you understand one of the major facets of the Christian diamond, and a recurring motif in human life. The universal calibrates your vision. It helps you see patterns.

The universal calibrates your vision. It helps you see patterns. — frank

"Belief systems" seems a better description than "the universal"... "Helps" is far too neutral or positive.