They changed the way of thinking but not the role since the Roman Empire. — javi2541997
The "state" is a 15th century concept. — Benkei
which evolved to a "belonging to the State" - Classical Age -. — Gus Lamarch
Here is where we find for the first time the feeling of "nationalism" I belong to x State because my identity, culture, customs, language were born here — javi2541997
But I think it is just another trap. — javi2541997
Yes, probably today we will not die in our works for the conditions or lack of rights — javi2541997
The point being that to apply the word "state" to these ancient governments, when you clearly meant it in the modern sense, is wrong because they are not what we understand states in the modern sense to be. — Benkei
or do you think that it has to be a matter of keeping government as we know it, or do you see any scope for other possibilities in our present times? — Jack Cummins
Nowadays, this same trap has been transformed into a much more complex and rigid form through the use of the sum of:
Nationality + Religion - or in the case of the Western World, "Ideologies "-. — Gus Lamarch
Yet, because I assure you that the objective of the current job market is to use you as much as possible. — Gus Lamarch
- You focus on the argument that "concepts as abstractions have not yet been conceived" to support your argument directed against me and not my idea.
What you forget is that, in practice, these concepts have been projected by humanity for more than 5,000 years.
Honestly, your total bias in the detail of concepts being only metaphysics has already become almost religious rhetoric. — Gus Lamarch
This is the example of European Union (different nations and culture but they have to unite together trying to make a powerful market). — javi2541997
Will we work until the 70 or 75 years old? Probably.
Will it disappear the jubilation as we know today? Probably too. — javi2541997
I don't think that there has ever been such a time of law and order in recorded history. People are feeling like caged animals. — Jack Cummins
However, I have wondered if this whole situation might have been better responded to if people had been asked to take care of themselves and others rather than it all being enforced by the government. — Jack Cummins
I know that you are not speaking about the current rules and regulations and they may vary from country to country. However, I have wondered if this whole situation might have been better responded to if people had been asked to take care of themselves and others rather than it all being enforced by the government.
But what happens to this knowledge and will when a society that has been raised to depend on the state for both education and protection is asked to protect itself? — NOS4A2
@Gus LamarchThe European Union is an economic prison created by a State larger than the States that compose the European nations.
So if these ancient civilisations fall within the meaning of a State, where do you draw the line? We had earlier settlements than that, that exercised some control over a geographic area? Were those states too?
Because I think that's where you run into trouble, because either you accept those as a "State" avant la lettre or you have to explain where the cut-off is and why that isn't arbitrary. And you run into trouble, because we know that the earliest settlements ("States") were certainly not predicated on fear to create order - — Benkei
One of the reasons I thought you were talking about modern states is precisely due to the use of "fear", which is reminiscent of Max Weber's definition that the State has a monopoly on violence. — Benkei
the concept of "Government" had only been functionally expressed through its establishment through the "State", which creates order through the use of fear. — Gus Lamarch
Weren't the first states sustained through "fear"? — Gus Lamarch
The European Union is an economic prison created by a State larger than the States that compose the European nations.
Initially it was a relationship of interdependence and unity thanks to the great destruction of both World Wars, however, over the course of 70 years, without a new purpose, this institution would meet its end. The point is that this same institution, already established, generated a lot of profit for the elites, and therefore, a new objective had to be be created. This same objective that currently imprisoned and made dependent the nations that decided to be part of it.
Therefore, my previous argument that "a State that is sustained by some characteristic of society, tends to eternalize that same characteristic", is correct, since the current economies are no longer concerned with the development of the economy, but with the establishment of the economy.
"The State does not need anymore that you have economic independence and economic prosperity to establish itself, on the contrary, it needs you to become poor and depend on it so that it stabilizes." — Gus Lamarch
I remember the Dutch primer minister said about my country (Spain) we are citizens who waste the money in women and wine. It is completely a lie. Nevertheless, that is the economic trap. Sometimes I think norths European countries want the south to be poorer just to get more benefit and zero competition. This is why I do not understand how Greece and Spain are the countries which have mora labour hours despite they have the lowest income (?) interesting. — javi2541997
Let me ask this differently. What distinguishes a non-nomadic tribe from a State? Or a reclusive family staking out a claim of land? An individual doing this? — Benkei
And why do you assume fear is the driving factor instead of (the need for) cooperation behind the ordering of societies? Fear is merely a tool and a pretty useless one compared to inspiration. — Benkei
this plays into stereotypes Dutch people (and Swedish, Austrian and Danish) have of southern european countries like Spain, Italy and Greece. You're lazy, and we're hard working. — Benkei
Agree with this point. Of course it is an economic prison just to make richer other countries, well better called as "elites". Since covid started the last years it has been patent how different the north/south of Europe actually is. Here is where you have a lot of "positive" prejudices to the north (they are workers, keep their money better, industries, etc...) while the south has the "negative" prejudices (lazy, poor, bad workers, insult, etc...) I remember the Dutch primer minister said about my country (Spain) we are citizens who waste the money in women and wine. It is completely a lie. Nevertheless, that is the economic trap. Sometimes I think norths European countries want the south to be poorer just to get more benefit and zero competition. This is why I do not understand how Greece and Spain are the countries which have mora labour hours despite they have the lowest income (?) interesting. — javi2541997
“The State, completely in its genesis, essentially and almost completely during the first stages of its existence, is a social institution, forced by a victorious group of men on a defeated group, with the sole purpose of regulating the dominion of the victorious group over the vanquished, and securing itself against revolt from within and attacks from abroad. Teleologically, this dominion had no other purpose than the economic exploitation of the vanquished by the victors.”
There are some great ideas within. He lays out some anthropological evidence for his thesis, though it may be a little outdated. But I’ve come to accept the “conquest theory” over the so-called “social contract”. — NOS4A2
Again I respect your point of view and I guess you are not of these kind of people but if you say that easy argument of “they are taking our money in south while we are working in north” is so convincing in your population it disappoints a lot coming from countries with better universities, welfare State, modernism, open minded. — javi2541997
If, hypothetically, the first "Individual" to appear, it drove the stake into the ground and said: -This is mine. This is not the creation of the State, but of private property. The State arises from the perversed perception of this same individual, who, instead of inspiring other individuals to achieve their own successes like him, and encourage them, he establishes that "whoever lives and has lived in this land, now will have to pay tribute to me", simply because he "can" do it, because he now has political power; he "murdered" the individual power of his peers. — Gus Lamarch
@Gus LamarchToday's Europe forgets that the West was founded thanks to the base of the romance countries, who are descendants of the Roman Empire, which was also sustained and developed at the expense of ancient Greece.
While this kind of irrationality takes place in Europe, we Americans forget that we owe everything and more to Europe itself, and so on.
I'm still not clear on what makes a state a state because I reject the notion that it necessarily must be through fear. — Benkei
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