These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." — Gospel of Thomas
The last part is complicated. "ruling over the all." I'd like to know what 'ruling' connotes in the source language. & what 'All' is the source language too. It seems unlikely that 'ruling over the all' means like a Ceasar or a Genghis Khan exerting power, but the esoteric meaning isn't clear to me. — csalisbury
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." 1
"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned. ... 2
(translation appears to be a group work product)His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that won't be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed." — From Robert Miller
There are so many misconceptions about the Gnostic gospels whether it be that of Thomas, Mary, Judas, Phillip - whichever. Because this material is tendentious, scholars are often inaccurate and contradictory on this material too, so you need to be very careful about what you assume from these texts. Why are you attracted to this material? — Tom Storm
What do you make of the first couple parts? — csalisbury
One of the interesting qualities of the Gospel of Thomas is how the language is very close to the received canon of the Church Fathers. So the "esoteric" messages are important but there is also a down to earth quality in the words to be observed. Consider the 6th verse: — Valentinus
I don't have any views on it as I don't remember the documents well enough. I read some of them in the 1980's and I knew one of Carl Jung's offsiders when the Jung Codex was put together. We spent a good deal of time discussing their significance to early Christianity. Nothing you won't find in Elaine Pagle's famous book (The Gnositc Gospels). — Tom Storm
Interesting, why are you attracted to this approach to the gnostic gospels (perhaps, mysticism in genera?) I notice you're using autobiographical detail, proper names, and indications of your inclusion in a kind of a sanctified, certified community. What does this approach do for you? — csalisbury
That work is a good element to bring into the discussion. While noting the difficulties of confirming texts that so much energy went into erasing from history, Pagels also presented a defense of Pauline Christianity in the face of the new information. It was her dime and I appreciate the argument. But I wouldn't hire her for the best advocate to present a different view.Nothing you won't find in Elaine Pagels' famous book (The Gnositc Gospels). — Tom Storm
Pagels (who doesn't sing) is a reference to one of the seminal writers on this subject - surely this name is copasetic. Her work on the Gospel of Judas was revelatory to me (no pun intended). The notion of Judas being the most loved and significant of all the disciples (because he had a key role in setting the divine plan in motion) is a compelling idea. A beatific betrayal, if you like. This was also echoed in the novel The Last Temptation of Christ, another extraordinary mystical interpretation of the story. — Tom Storm
One of the windows is how sexuality is referred to as not being important in some passages while others call for everyone to be "male."
It sounds like a local difficulty being related to a universal one. — Valentinus
That's scary, but when it does, you're left with a kind of beautiful feeling - "I don't know anything, but there's a powerful feeling coming in to fill that gap" and that's where the astonishment arises. — csalisbury
I picked up a vibe early that you were coming in with a kind of detached psychological/analytic approach - kind of therapist-used-to-probing-others-while-their-own-views-remain-safely-unspoken - that just felt deeply counter to the kind of conversation I'm interested in. I pushed back accordingly. — csalisbury
I'd love to know the relation between what's being translated as 'All" in this text and what's being translated as 'all' in the buddhist texts. — csalisbury
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
(67) Jesus said, "If one who knows the all still feels a personal deficiency, he is completely deficient."
(77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
Perhaps the Gnostic stuff appeals more to people with hierarchical machinations on their mind. "How can I access the real wisdom and the key to ever lasting life?" (or whatever the reward underpinning the doctrines might be) Is it not interesting that the Gnostic teachings also pivot on an idea that is so prevalent now. That the world is coming unstuck and the truth is hidden by design and that only some with the right mindfulness can access this truth. — Tom Storm
That's why Pagel's book, Beyond Belief, appealed to me, as it confirmed this narrative. According to Pagels, Thomas' gospel was markedly different to the Gospel of John, in that it stressed the experiential nature of Christ's teaching and downplayed the idea of Jesus as an ultimate authority. But the powers-that-be coalesced around the Johannine intepretation - principally, I thought, because it is considerably easier to manage believers. We only ever read about the gnostics through the writings of those who vanquished them, like Iraneus and Tertullian. That is why the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts was such a revelation. — Wayfarer
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