PS I would not know happiness if I had not stumbled onto philosophy! If it were not for philosophy I would still be one of the most miserable people on earth. — Athena

Same here. I remember philosophy was very important in my life when I was 18 years old in my last grade of high school before starting the university. I was alone in class because I was "freak" for just reading books. Everyone had girlfriend/boyfriend and big group of friends except me so I felt really alone because that period of time is completely awful. It looks like you have to show something to just join a group of friends.
Reading books not only philosophy but literature (Don Quixote and Ulysses) etc... Give another hope in life.
I also had that feeling of giving up and being frustrated asking myself: "why the hell my teens suck?" but I was making a mistake. I was looking more the life of others instead of mine.
I started accepting myself and then everything changed for better. I am happy of who I am and I do not need someone to love me or being friends with. I am not force to do it.

I am a very fortunate person to have such a good life, — Athena

I feel the same way. I see that I am one of the most fortunate people in the history of the world, even though there have been some really unhappy parts of my life. But I don't think that's really what's going on. I think it's what's inside us, you and me, that makes us, I don't like the word, optimists. There are many other people who live in the same world who are cranky and unhappy and who blame this beautiful world.

Experience (i.e. understanding-based competence), however, is developed through surviving and/or overcoming failure. — 180 Proof

:roll: That is a bit negative isn't it? And what does having an experience have to do with competence? Life is full of awesome experiences, like making love on the beach. Previous experience may make the present experience better but it is not required. :grin: And the experience can be a wonderful memory that lifts our spirits whenever we think of it.

Facts might be important, but perhaps even more important is the spirit of the moment. How we feel. Like if the wave hits at an intimate moment, the couple may think their experience was ruined, or they can grab their blanket and run from the wave laughing. Keeping in mind, this moment can be a long-term memory that again and again manifests feeling and that feeling will define the experience more so than facts.

Oh, good. I get to show off my erudition. This is from Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

If I may interpret the interpretation. The Tao is the unspeakable oneness that comes before thought. Goodness, in this context, is Te, the expression of Tao in our lives. I think what Cicero and you are talking about is morality. Interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation - What's right comes from inside us - our hearts.

I feel the same way. I see that I am one of the most fortunate people in the history of the world, even though there have been some really unhappy parts of my life. But I don't think that's really what's going on. I think it's what's inside us, you and me, that makes us, I don't like the word, optimists. There are many other people who live in the same world who cranky and unhappy and who blame this beautiful world. — T Clark

And that is where philosophy is important! But also good parenting and security are important. We are learning, being disadvantaged as a child, or traumatized, can have a lifelong negative effect. Perhaps some learn to deal with adversity better than others, and some childhood adversity may be important in developing coping skills for adult adversity? The only thing I am really sure of is philosophy made a huge difference in my life and for me, it is everything the Bible is for a Christian.

I am fine with the word "optimist" because when we are optimistic we open doors for good things to happen and when we are pessimistic, we can have a death grip holding those doors closed. It seems to me, right now, most people are nihilistic or pessimistic. Maybe when the pandemic passes our spirit will improve?

I would not know happiness if I had not stumbled onto philosophy! — Athena

Philosophy, in particular western philosophy, has always seemed like a stone wall to me. Hard, rigid, and overbuilt but fun to bounce balls, my ideas, off. The stoniest of the stones is Kant. There are some philosophers I like sometimes - e.g. Emerson and James.

On the other hand, I've met other people like you who were saved by philosophy. I must admit I don't get it, but I've come to respect it and accept that it works. For me, it's like jazz. It's not my music and I don't really get it, but enough people I respect value it that it would be silly and graceless to argue.

Oh, good. I get to show off my erudition. This is from Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

If I may interpret the interpretation. The Tao is the unspeakable oneness that comes before thought. Goodness, in this context, is Te, the expression of Tao in our lives. I think what Cicero and you are talking about is morality. Interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation - What's right comes from inside us. — T Clark

Now, this is heaven! What a delightful contemplation! :heart: :flower: I will have to ponder it before attempting a response. But my knee-jerk reaction is "morality" is finding the good and choosing it because of my experience with moral stories and asking the child, "what is the moral of the story."

However, you also make me think about the lecture on the Greek Legacy I am listening to. For a period of time, the philosophers of Athens thought it impossible for a bad person to do good things. I do not agree with that. I do not see people as good or bad, but I think we are both.

Philosophy, in particular western philosophy, has always seemed like a stone wall to me. Hard, rigid, and overbuilt but fun to bounce balls, my ideas, off. The stoniest of the stones is Kant. There are some philosophers I like sometimes - e.g. Emerson and James.

On the other hand, I've met other people like you who were saved by philosophy. I must admit I don't get it, but I've come to respect it and accept that it works. For me, it's like jazz. It's not my music and I don't really get it, but enough people I respect value it that it would be silly and graceless to argue. — T Clark

Perfect. It is like I don't get religion. Weird isn't it? Some people want only natural health foods and exercise, some want pot and some want beer or wine. "To each his own", my grandmother would say. I had no idea that there could be any reason for not liking Kant and Weber. After almost worshipping Cicero, I have found fault in him. I did not like Confucious because he is so sexist, but I did like his explanation of the importance of putting effort into being the kind of human being we want to be. I really want to be a happy and loving person who makes my grandchildren and their children feel good. I have a lot of work to get there for the same reason you find fault with Western logic being like a stone wall.

I did not like Confucious because he is so sexist, but I did like his explanation of the importance of putting effort into being the kind of human being we want to be. — Athena

I don't know if you are familiar with Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching. He was the anti-Confucius. Here's my sales pitch for the Tao Te Ching - it is the founding book of a major school of philosophy and you can read it in an hour. You get just as much spiritual credit as you would for reading the Bible or Book of Mormon.

I don't know if you are familiar with Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching. He was the anti-Confucius. Here's my sales pitch for the Tao Te Ching - it is the founding book of a major school of philosophy and you can read it in an hour. You get just as much spiritual credit as you would for reading the Bible or Book of Mormon. — T Clark

T Clark — T Clark

:rofl: I think I rejected Confucius and the Book of Mormon at about the same time, both because of the sexism! :shade: I have since renewed my interest in Confucius, but I doubt if I will ever regain interest in the Book of Mormon. Believing some people have dark skin because "God" cursed them is a little too offensive for me. :rofl: At this time of my life, I have read enough to conclude not even great thinkers are right all the time so I have a renewed interest in some philosophers.

Now if by Tao Te Ching you mean I Ching, I had two I Ching books from different authors and fear I lost both of them in a move. Maybe that is something I should do today, buy another one. Oh dear, that means going to a book store and that is like an alcoholic going to the bar to get a glass of water. :worry: But heck, if that is what you are talking about, I have to have the book for the discussion, right? :grin:

I'm interested in how you interpret the transfer of wealth consideration and what are the mechanisms that will cause this to happen. Please start a topic on that!
Otherwise my observation it is less because people are inherently amoral, more it is of where we are in the reality we individually are able to conjure for ourselves. Some people live day-to-day because they must, others are part of some sub-culture that is given to certain attitudes, still others have time to consider larger topics- these are not always in sync.

You may have missed my point - the Tao Te Ching is short. It's a corollary to Occam's Razor - if you have two books which are otherwise the same, read the shorter one. It's not the same as the I Ching. The I Ching is much older. I've never read or used it. Here's a link to a whole bunch of different translations of the Tao Te Ching:

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

I started with Stephen Mitchell's version. I like it a lot. I've learned since that it is very Americanized. Some of the nuance get's left out, but ancient Chinese nuance can be really obscure. Ellen Marie Chen. Addiss & Lombardo.

I was grabbed in the first verse. I've known others who took longer. First rule of book gifts or recommendations - never ask if the person has read the book. I won't.

Forgive me for my bluntness, but it does feel like a waste. A waste of intellect if the most intelligent people in the world don't feel the need to improve it. Or am I wrong? — TaySan

1. Philosophers are not necessarily the world's most intelligent people.
2. If and when philosophers or anyone else came up with a world-saving idea, then they would also have to sell the idea to the world-- much harder an endeavour than finding a solution. Would need to tackle, fight and overcome prejudice, ingrained cultural norms, and personal preferences and beliefs... not possible.
3. The world operates currently on a financial or should I say fiscal model. Things that get done are things that generate profit. This is not possible to overcome, AND it may be in direct opposition to implementing solutions to save the world.
4. The feeling to improve the world does not necessarily produce something that does improve the world. There is a terribly large gap between the two.
5. Maybe, just maybe, you think it possible that the world does not need improving? Whenever mankind tinkered with improving it, the introduced improvements made it worse.
6. Most philosophers feel that evolution of the fittest will take care of necessary and required improvement, if your idea of improvement will include survival in a mutually pleasant scenario with nature's other forces.
7. Improvements have been taking place for a long time now. Steadily, surely and unstoppably. It is not philosophers who instigate these improvements, but technology, social change, and a modernization of superstitious prejudice.
8. The same thing that you raise your concern, that is, waste of intellect, has been brought up in many elitist groups. In Mensa, for instance.
9. Because, you are absolutely right: if you assume that philosophers are mandated to improve the world, then they don't fill their duties, and they are wasting their time and intellect. My response to that is what I first said in the beginning of this thread: nobody tells anyone what to do and what their mandate is or should be, unless the director offers compensation to get his will done. ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY US HEFTY AMOUNTS OF MONEY OR OTHER BENEFITS TO COMPEL US TO DO WHAT YOU SAY WE SHOULD BE DOING?

And yes, I'd love to hear how philosophy could contribute to that. — TaySan

Well, philosophers did come up with science, so there's that.

↪Athena
I'm interested in how you interpret the transfer of wealth consideration and what are the mechanisms that will cause this to happen. Please start a topic on that!
Otherwise my observation it is less because people are inherently amoral, more it is of where we are in the reality we individually are able to conjure for ourselves. Some people live day-to-day because they must, others are part of some sub-culture that is given to certain attitudes, still others have time to consider larger topics- these are not always in sync. — Proximate1

I would stand another thread, but I don't want my thoughts separated from the change in our thinking.
I am blown away by all the covid assistance that has happened and will happen. I have been through a few recessions and nothing like this has happened. In the past, the auto industry was bailed out and the banks were bailed out, but not the people. I remember Reagan saying we did not have homeless people just bums, and I remember how the poor were scapegoated for our economic problems that were caused by OPEC embargoing oil and bad industrial judgment. During that economic crisis when families needed help, we cut public assistance by increasing the requirements for assistance, making it harder to get assistance. Please, doesn't anyone else remember what happened?

During the Reagan administration, there was a huge shift in wealth and power. Clinton tried to turn this around, but another economic crash took us down again, and nothing was done to help families save their homes, and the media did not present the reality as it is being presented today. How the media is reporting this crash puts the blame on the cause of the crash, not the victims of the crash. That is a hugely important difference. The housing crisis came up as people victimized by banks, but the banks were bailed out not the victims. I think that disaster set us up for a different consciousness this time around?

Over the years I have marveled at how much assistance has increased and all the criticism! Never has any society enjoyed the abundance we have today and we might be mismanaging it, but we are new at this. We never had the ability to do what we can today. We are having a learning experience and I am fascinated with what is happening now and how this will influence our ideas about what government can and should do and what it should not do. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. What do we want of government of the people, by the people, for the people?

Nightly, I am bombarded by the injustices committed against Native Americans, the Irish, Italians, Asians, people of color, and women. This never happened before! Like our delusion of greatness is being turned upside down, and we have a lot of anger raising. Some are angry because change can not happen fast enough. Some are angry because their delusion of the greatness of the US is being destroyed. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. Why, all of a sudden, are we so focused on injustices and the democratic goal of equality? What happened to HIS STORY and the belief that what we have, depends on a few great men?

Well, philosophers did come up with science, so there's that. — Banno

That comment is vitally important to this discussion! Are all those people living below the poverty level born to be inferior people or can science detect other causes of poverty that a democracy should address? Up till now, people have functioned on a lot of false notions, and science is destroying them. Science is vital to our democracy. And here is the problem with Trump and his followers who have their lives rapped around a myth that is not supported by science. That myth has come to us through history and when we see it, we might be shocked by how long it has taken to be the ideal of democracy that came out of the Enlightenment, not the Bible. The Jews and Greeks had a war when Greeks attempted to rule over them, because the Greeks did not respect the line of inheritance that determined a person's position in life, but gave jobs to anyone who appeared to have the merit necessary to doing the job.

Mass education and merit hiring is changing our social order.

2. If and when philosophers or anyone else came up with a world-saving idea, then they would also have to sell the idea to the world-- much harder an endeavour than finding a solution. Would need to tackle, fight and overcome prejudice, ingrained cultural norms, and personal preferences and beliefs... not possible. — god must be atheist

Very true! Because of the US war with Afghanistan and a huge investment, half of Afghanistan has been Americanized and brought into the modern world, and half has not. When we pull our troops out, other countries will likely do the same, and there will be a blood bathe as the more barbaric Aghanstanians fight to take back their country and the way of life people had when the Bible was written, complete with beheading some people and stoning others. The best fighters in this war are the women who want the equality they have gained. They are our sisters and we are about to turn our backs on them and their children.

You may have missed my point - the Tao Te Ching is short. It's a corollary to Occam's Razor - if you have two books which are otherwise the same, read the shorter one. It's not the same as the I Ching. The I Ching is much older. I've never read or used it. Here's a link to a whole bunch of different translations of the Tao Te Ching:

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

I started with Stephen Mitchell's version. I like it a lot. I've learned since that it is very Americanized. Some of the nuance get's left out, but ancient Chinese nuance can be really obscure. Ellen Marie Chen. Addiss & Lombardo.

I was grabbed in the first verse. I've known others who took longer. First rule of book gifts or recommendations - never ask if the person has read the book. I won't. — T Clark

I bought both the Tao Te Ching and another I Ching. I am so looking forward to comparing them.

The first thing in the Tao Te Ching book I read said,

The Tao has no name
it is a cloud that has no shape.

If a ruler
follows it faithfully,

Heaven and earth make love,
And sweet dew-rain love,
The people do not know why,
But they are gathered together like music. — Man-ho Kwok Martin Palmer Jay Ramsay

Reminds me of some of the Bible and Amenhotep's prayer and the Native American creator.

:pray: :heart: in tune with Tao is much more than factual correctness and sometimes words just are not good enough to convey meaning. I think it is pretty Asian, in general, to think our brains chatter too much and that certainly distorts or completely blocks our experience of life.

n tune with Tao is much more than factual correctness and sometimes words just are not good enough to convey meaning. — Athena

You got a very flowery translation. You don't strike me as a huggy kissy kind of person. Take a look at the first verse in some of the other translations too. You can find them at the link I gave. Stephen Mitchell's is one good one. They are much more hard hitting. The Tao Te Ching is an engineering textbook to teach you how to build reality. Of course, I'm an engineer. It's that old hammer/nail thing.

You got a very flowery translation. You don't strike me as a huggy kissy kind of person. Take a look at the first verse in some of the other translations too. You can find them at the link I gave. Stephen Mitchell's is one good one. They are much more hard hitting. The Tao Te Ching is an engineering textbook to teach you how to build reality. Of course, I'm an engineer. It's that old hammer/nail thing. — T Clark

Ah go on, just because I chose the translation with pictures doesn't mean it is too flowery. :lol: I am afraid you are right about me not being a huggy kissy person. That spreads disease, yuck. But in my private life, in solitude by the river, I am flooded with happiness, and I am good with the matter of my physical form dissimulating and becoming one with nature. While walking down the river path, I have no desire to hit anything or anyone with a hammer. :grin:

My father was an engineer. He worked on the Apollo that landed on the moon. He was in favor of language that was straight and to the point. That is fine for guys and women who want to be like them, but I enjoy being a girl. A bit dreamy. :grin:

Very true! Because of the US war with Afghanistan and a huge investment, half of Afghanistan has been Americanized and brought into the modern world, and half has not. When we pull our troops out, other countries will likely do the same, and there will be a blood bathe as the more barbaric Aghanstanians fight to take back their country and the way of life people had when the Bible was written, complete with beheading some people and stoning others. The best fighters in this war are the women who want the equality they have gained. They are our sisters and we are about to turn our backs on them and their children. — Athena

I missed the role of the philosophers in this paragraph, making the world better than it is.

Ah go on, just because I chose the translation with pictures doesn't mean it is too flowery. :lol: I am afraid you are right about me not being a huggy kissy person. That spreads disease, yuck. But in my private life, in solitude by the river, I am flooded with happiness, and I am good with the matter of my physical form dissimulating and becoming one with nature. While walking down the river path, I have no desire to hit anything or anyone with a hammer. :grin:

My father was an engineer. He worked on the Apollo that landed on the moon. He was in favor of language that was straight and to the point. That is fine for guys and women who want to be like them, but I enjoy being a girl. A bit dreamy. :grin: — Athena

Interesting. Reading your posts, I always have envisioned you as a seven-headed serpent-monster, who has snakes coming out of the heads for hair, and poisonous ones, too; and that you spit fire and brimstone at the passersby in front of your cage.

JUST KIDDING!!!

I could write you a poem.....

No seriously, I'm just frustrated with the fact that we still have weapons of mass destruction on earth.

Creating a better world makes you happier, so that for me is reward enough in itself. Of course it's how you define it.

this 'philosophy came up with science' seems to be a very popular idea. and if you're a great philosopher you could probably win every argument about it. Perhaps as a discipline it is not taken seriously enough then in the current educational systems.

Anyone saying science has made philosophy irrelevant doesn't seem to understand what philosophy is or how it works in academia — Christoffer

Perhaps the role of philosophy in the 21st century is not that obvious to me. Perhaps I am traumatized by the way it was forced upon me as a means of upbringing. But most of all I want people to engage in lively discussions.

:pray: :heart: in tune with Tao is much more than factual correctness and sometimes words just are not good enough to convey meaning. I think it is pretty Asian, in general, to think our brains chatter too much and that certainly distorts or completely blocks our experience of life — Athena

asians have created different models of the energy system of the body. and they generally feel that that energy should not just go to the brain. they indeed call that energy blockage. when I see obese people who are exhausted, I think: these people don't understand energy at all.

Perhaps as a discipline it is not taken seriously enough then in the current educational systems.

@TaySan

Literally this is the main problem. Our educational system doesn't take seriously important things which come from philosophy as ethics, moralism, oratory, debate through good arguments, what do we want in life... the reach of happiness

agree. Yet only half of the planet have access to the internet and a lot of them don't speak English (China). I think if everyone was on the internet and the entire internet was safe & free and there was one uniform language, philosophy would skyrocket!

As for now, the EU holds so many languages that maintaining EU law requires translators. In other words: severely dysfunctional. Ah well. At least we got covid to reduce stress :)

. I am very anti-philosophic and I avoid philosophy because it is playing with shadows, thoughts, speculation. And you can go on playing infinitely, ad infinitum, ad nauseam; there is no end to it. One word creates another word, one theory creates another theory, and you can go on and on and on. In five thousand years much philosophy has existed in the world, and to no purpose at all.

. But there are people who have the philosophic attitude. And if you are one of them, please drop it; otherwise you and your energy will be lost in a desert.

I am very anti-philosophic and I avoid philosophy because it is playing with shadows, thoughts, speculation. ....there are people who have the philosophic attitude. And if you are one of them, please drop it; — Anand-Haqq

The obvious question is "Why are you here?"