thank you for explaining this. food for contemplation :)

I see the TTC as a bunch of snap shots of the Tao. Lao Tzu is trying to show it to us without letting the words get in the way. We're supposed to get our view of the Tao in our peripheral vision. — T Clark

Ah, now that makes sense to me. It rings with my idea of 'gaps between the snaps' when it comes to discovering family history.
The quality behind or surrounding the data of everyday life.
Just as photos or biographical facts are good starting points, they are only moments in time. We are more than that...

It is my belief that Lao Tzu was pointing out how, where and why words fail. — Present awareness

I think he was saying that, sure, but I think he was saying a lot more too. The Tao is not hard to speak about. It is unspeakable. The Tao comes before words. Or maybe that's the same thing you were saying

The natural question is, if Taoism not an intellectual exercise why does it feel like one? — TheMadFool

• People like you and me make everything an intellectual exercise.
• Similarly, western philosophy is not capable of handling anything not intellectual.
• It is my understanding that Taoism as practiced rigorously includes a big meditative effort. I believe Tai Chi is related to Taoism.
• The Tao Te Ching is self-consciously paradoxical. Applying the intellect to something that can not be known intellectually.
• Lao Tzu thought it was funny.
• I think part of it is technique. Using the intellect to understand the Tao is frustrating. After hitting your head against the wall enough times, you give up. Tah dah - you're enlightened.

The lesson of Taoism then is that instead of getting our knickers in a twist trying to construct better and better generalizations to accommodate exceptions what we should be doing is assume a flexible stance, a necessity if one is to recognize that each situation is unique in and of itself and deserves to be treated as such and not in accordance to some rule/principle that's intended to cover all cases...because that's "impossible"??? — TheMadFool

Sure, but there's a lot more going on than just that.

This also reminded me of Kant as you later mentioned. — Benkei

I just went online and looked. A lot of people have thought the same thing.

legal positivist idea of a Grundnorm. — Benkei

Not familiar. I'll take a look

More generally, most western philosophy I've read seems to have a similar idea - things existing beyond words. Sometimes something important. But it always seems to be a little chunk off in the corner of the big picture somewhere rather than the biggest picture of all.

Yeah, they seem somewhat at odds with the more personal passages, but I appreciate your thoughts, both. — Isaac

I think that rulers and bureaucrats were among the main audience Lao Tzu was writing for. So I think discussing politics makes sense. Which doesn't change the fact that I don't get much out of those verses.

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad. — T Clark

This verse, I think, refers again to the central paradox, and to the role of affect. This is how we qualitatively differentiate experience - by valence, positive and negative. But in relation to the Tao this distinction isn’t digital - it’s relational. There is no definitive line between good and bad because reality is not just black and white, it’s shades of grey. Have you tried to define a shade of grey? In computer graphics, we refer to a percentage of black, but this percentage implies a total of 100%, and therefore the existence of a percentage of white. Any description of a shade of grey is necessarily relational.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other. — T Clark

The difference between this type of differentiation and conceptual distinction is dimensional, in my view. Good and bad, beautiful and ugly, difficult and easy, long and short - they’re are all transcendental or aesthetic ideas. Naming a particular thing consolidates the relational structure of a concept, effectively isolating it from other concepts. Valence, on the other hand, points out that nothing is ever really isolated, that there is no being except in relation to non-being, no after without a before.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever. — T Clark

This reminds me of Deacon’s absentials. When we’re not choosing, we’re still choosing. It’s about being conscious of what we allow and enable by our inaction (ignorance, isolation and exclusion) as well as by our action (awareness, connection and collaboration). It’s about the fact that we are continuously in relation to the Tao even when we’re deliberately not. In this sense, too, we understand the Tao most clearly when we’re not striving to identify and attribute an intentional act, a rightful possession, a personal accomplishment, etc. We are closer to the Tao when it appears as if we are, do and have nothing at all.

We are both reading the Chuang Tzu or Zhuangzi but at a different pace. — Amity

I've read Thomas Merton's translation of the Chuang Tzu. It doesn't work for me as well as the TTC. It's less figurative and less poetic. The stories don't work for me as well as more direct verses in the TTC. Ironically, the fact that the TTC is more intellectual makes it easier for me to work with, since I'm a pretty intellectual person. Still - I need to spend more time with the Chuang Tzu.

Maybe you and @Jack Cummins can start a thread about the Chuang Tzu sometime.

'...the teaching of the Tao Te Ching is moral in the deepest sense'. — Amity

There are a lot of commentaries, some recent and some written 2,000 years ago. Reading them is like reading different translations - everybody has their own way of seeing things. I used to think, who are these people who think their opinion about the TTC is worth thinking about. Then, as I started working on this thread I realized - Hey! Now I'm writing a commentary.

thank you for explaining this. food for contemplation — TaySan

I don't know if you can tell, but I'm having a really good time.

Ah, now that makes sense to me. It rings with my idea of 'gaps between the snaps' when it comes to discovering family history. — Amity

My family have been going back through old family pictures over the last few months. My brothers, my cousin, and I are the only ones who remember my parents when they were younger and my grandparents. We're all in our 60s or 70s. My children, especially my daughter, have been expressing a desire to see what's up before we are gone. There are hundreds of pictures, most of which are of no interest. We don't know who the people are or where they are. But we are building up a picture of our family.

The Tao comes before words. — T Clark

Yes, I feel that was what he was pointing to.

The English translation of the word “Tao” could very well be “the way of nature”. The way of nature comes before words. The name of something, is not the thing itself, rather just an abstract representation. Direct experience, is the way that we perceive nature, so if I’m pointing to the moon, one may look at my finger or where it’s pointing, but whatever one sees will be experienced directly.

This verse, I think, refers again to the central paradox, and to the role of affect. This is how we qualitatively differentiate experience - by valence, positive and negative. But in relation to the Tao this distinction isn’t digital - it’s relational. — Possibility

You're talking about affect and valence. What do those mean in this context? Value? Preference? Is it like one of those surveys - on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you rate this? Is that what you mean by "relational?"

reality is not just black and white, it’s shades of grey... Any description of a shade of grey is necessarily relational. — Possibility

Except I don't think Lao Tzu is talking about judgments and distinctions as shades of gray. I think he's saying they are illusions. "Illusion" is probably not the right word. That's more of a Buddhist thing, but it's something like that.

The difference between this type of differentiation and conceptual distinction is dimensional, in my view. Good and bad, beautiful and ugly, difficult and easy, long and short - they’re are all transcendental or aesthetic ideas. Naming a particular thing consolidates the relational structure of a concept, effectively isolating it from other concepts. Valence, on the other hand, points out that nothing is ever really isolated, that there is no being except in relation to non-being, no after without a before. — Possibility

I'm a bit lost here.

This reminds me of Deacon’s absentials. When we’re not choosing, we’re still choosing. It’s about being conscious of what we allow and enable by our inaction (ignorance, isolation and exclusion) as well as by our action (awareness, connection and collaboration). — Possibility

Can you clarify a bit. Maybe make more of a correspondence of your ideas and Lao Tzu's. Define some terms.

The English translation of the word “Tao” could very well be “the way of nature”. — Present awareness

According to Wikipedia:

Tao or Dao from Chinese: 道; is a Chinese word signifying the "way", "path", "route", road

Direct experience, is the way that we perceive nature, — Present awareness

It's not the way most of us perceive nature most of the time. That's why we need the Tao Te Ching.

bless you :)

Verse 3 – Stephen Mitchell

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything they know,
everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.

I’m not sure how much I have to say on this verse. Others, please see if you can fill in the blanks.

I do have this overall comment – There is a general theme, maybe more of an undertone, in the TTC. Emptying, releasing, shrinking, weakening, losing, surrendering, waiting, withholding, giving things up, allowing, seeing, not doing.

Isn't "talking about action" the same thing as consciousness? Even if it's just talking to ourselves. — T Clark

By inviting us to follow a way that cannot be explained in the same manner as those we are accustomed to, are we not being asked to become aware of something we were missing before?

As a part of the invitation, the appearance of things and events that we are in the habit of only talking about in our system of names are said to be born from that element we have been missing.

So some part of the instruction to "not act" is recognizing how much happens without a certain agency as we were confined to before making the acquaintance of the missing understanding. The change in our understanding and restraining from leaping into action uncovers the way things actually work and come about.

The change in our understanding and restraining from leaping into action uncovers the way things actually work and come about. — Valentinus

The Tao is obviously central to the experience that Lao Tzu is trying to lead us to. For me, wu wei, action without action, is also central. I've thought quite a bit about how they are connected. I think you've expressed it very well, in a way I hadn't thought of before.

When we get to the second half of the TTC, Lao Tzu writes about Te, which is usually translated as "virtue" and sometimes as "power" although everyone seems to agree that neither one of those is quite right. It's a concept I've struggled with. I have come to think of Te as the expression of Tao in each of our lives. I think that's what you are talking about. I'm not sure.

I've read what you wrote three times and I'll have to read it some more. Thank you.

I still feel that Taoism is both a resignation to and a celebration of the inherent complexity of reality. The verses of Taoism, not that I've read it in full, seem to convey what are essentially instances in which rules/principles that are designed as all-purpose break down.

When the world practices Tao,
Fast horses are used for their dung. — T Clark

The rule/principle that's "problematic" in the above verse is that fast horses should be used for racing, to serve as conveyance for messengers, in the military, etc.; dung is the last thing on people's minds when they see/hear of fast horses. I believe this theme defines and is the heart of Taoism. I wish I could remember it's Western equivalent but the only thought that crosses my mind comes from logic and is called the Fallacy Of The Accident. Perhaps the point Lao Tzu wants to make is that reality can't be/shouldn't be thought of as a docile and obedient ass - behavior predictable - but that it can, when one least expects it, be as unruly and willful as a wild horse - behavior unpredictable. Since reality is of such a character, it becomes impossible to zero in on an all-encompassing, fixed "law" that unifies it all and thus "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao".

The rule/principle that's "problematic" in the above verse is that fast horses should be used for racing, to serve as conveyance for messengers, in the military, etc.; dung is the last thing on people's minds when they see/hear of fast horses. — TheMadFool

When the Principle reigns the horses of war are raised in the fields — javi2541997

The line I quoted is from the same verse, 46, just a different translation. There's more to the verse than Javi2541997's quote. Here's the whole thing. Ellen Marie Chen translation. I don't know what version Javi was using:

When the world practices Tao,
Fast horses are used for their dung.
When the world does not practice Tao,
War horses give birth at the borders.
Among offenses (tsui), none is greater than having what is desirable.
Among calamities (huo), none is greater than not knowing contentment.
Among blames (chiu), none is greater than the desire for gain.
Therefore the contentment that comes from knowing contentment
Is a long lasting contentment.

To boil down, paraphrase, and butcher - When the ruler of a nation fails to follow the Tao, there will be war.

I don't know what version Javi was using: — T Clark

I was using a Spanish version from Luis Racionero. I tried to translate it in the most accurate English possible. Nevertheless, I’m going to type the verses in Spanish just if you want to translate it.

Cuando reina el Principio (al ser perfecta la paz), los caballos de guerra trabajan en el campo
Cuando se olvida el Principio (al estar en guerra la orden del día), se crían caballos de batalla hasta en los arrabales de las ciudades

That observation about utility and perspective reminds me of one my favorite passages from Zhuangzi:

Carpenter Shi went to Qi and, when he got to Crooked Shaft, he saw a serrate oak standing by the village shrine. It was broad enough to shelter several thousand oxen and measured a hundred spans around, towering above the hills. The lowest branches were eighty five feet from the ground and a dozen or so of them could have been made into boats. There were so many sightseers that the place looked like a fair, but the carpenter didn't even glance around and went on his way without stopping. His apprentice stood staring for a long time and then ran after Carpenter Shi and said, "Since I first took up my axe, Master, I have never see timber as beautiful as this. But you don't even bother to look, and go right on without stopping. Why is that?

"Forget it - say no more!" said the carpenter. "It's a worthless tree! Make boats out of it and they'd sink; make coffins and they'd rot in no time; make vessels and they'd break at once. Use it for doors and it would sweat sap like pine; use if tor posts and the worms would eat them up. It's not a timber tree - there's nothing it can be used for. That's how it got to be that old!

After Carpenter Shi had returned home, the oak tree appeared to him in a dream and, "What are you comparing me with? Are you comparing me with those useful trees? The cherry, the apple, the pear, the orange, the citron, the rest of those fructiferous trees and shrubs - as soon as their fruit is ripe they are torn apart and subjected to abuse. Their big limbs are broken off, their little limbs are yanked around. Their utility make life miserable for them, and so they don't get to finish out the years Heaven gave them but are cut off in mid - journey. They bring it on themselves - the pulling and tearing of the common mob, And it's the same way with all other things.

"As for me, I've been trying a long time to be of no use, and though I almost died, I've finally got it. This is of great use to me. If I had been of some use, would I ever have grown this large? Moreover, you and I are both us things. What's the point of this - things condemning things? You, a worthless man about to die - how do you know I am a worthless tree?"

When Carpenter Shi woke up, he reported his dream. His apprentice said, "If its so intent on being of no use, what's it doing there at the village shrine?"

"Shhh! Say no more! It's only resting there. If we carp and criticize, it will merely conclude that we don't understand it. Even if it weren't at the shrine, do you suppose it would be cut down? It protects itself in a different way from ordinary people. If you try to judge it by conventional standards, you'll be way off! — Translated by Burton Watson, Chap.4

What is a good man but a bad man’s teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man’s job? — T Clark

It is always the responsibility of the good ones to take care of the good and bad things happening in the world.

Cuando reina el Principio (al ser perfecta la paz), los caballos de guerra trabajan en el campo
Cuando se olvida el Principio (al estar en guerra la orden del día), se crían caballos de batalla hasta en los arrabales de las ciudades — javi2541997

This is how Google translates your Spanish version:

When the principle reigns (to be perfect), the warriors work in the camp. When Olivida the Principio (to be in the war of the Order of the Day), he creates warriors fighting in the cities of the cities.

I think we'll trust your translations. As I said, there are dozens of them out there. No reason yours shouldn't be welcome.

That observation about utility and perspective reminds me of one my favorite passages from Zhuangzi: — Valentinus

As I wrote in response to a post from @Amity, I've read Thomas Merton's translation of the Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, but I haven't spent much time or effort on it. I think Merton's translation is just an excerpt. Not certain. It's something I need to spend more time with if I expect all of you to think of me as a great Taoist scholar.

What I have read in the Zhuangzi isn't as compelling to me as the Tao Te Ching. The TTC is poetry and the Zhuangzi is mostly stories. The stories are interesting, but the poetry bores right into me. You, Amity, and Jack Cummins should get together and start a thread. I'll participate enthusiastically.

It is always the responsibility of the good ones to take care of the good and bad things happening in the world. — Caldwell

Although there is also a reciprocality. The bad man provides the good man with something too.

Although there is also a reciprocality. The bad man provides the good man with something too. — T Clark

There is no reciprocality in the true sense. If you look at statements 1 and 2, they're both jobs for the good man. In both statements, arrows point only to one direction. Better yet, the two statements are one and the same meaning.

There is no reciprocality in the true sense. If you look at statements 1 and 2, they're both jobs for the good man. In both statements, arrows point only to one direction. — Caldwell

Just for your information, here is the entire verse that contains the lines @Tom Storm was quoting. Verse 27 of Stephen Mitchell. I'm not sure if it makes any difference to what you wrote, but I think it at least puts it in a different light. I thought you might be interested.

A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.

Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light.

What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.

A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.

Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light. — T Clark

I like this.
I don't see this contradicting what I said previously, though -- the good ones are always responsible for the good and bad things happening in the world.

I don't see this contradicting what I said previously, — Caldwell

I think you're right.

The good ones are users of the world. :blush:

Thank you for this topic, TC.