The Buddha’s approach is ‘deconstructive’ in a way that is hard for us moderns to understand. It is insight into the nature of experience and in particular the factor that leads to continued rebirth and so suffering. — Wayfarer
The numerous contents of the tradition of Chinese medicine all originate from the study of the Dao.
I guess that depends on what you mean by ‘exist’. Non-being is not the same as non-existent. For me, ‘seems’ would refer to a phenomenal existence, appearance or being, but ‘seems perhaps’ refers to the contradiction at the heart of the Tao. I think it is misleading to think of the Tao as only existing, without acknowledging the possibility of it not existing, and vice versa, if that makes sense. — Possibility
“It seems to be the ancestor of 10,000 beings” - this description takes the Tao beyond the notion of being. — Possibility
“It seems to be the ancestor of 10,000 beings” - this description takes the Tao beyond the notion of being. — Possibility
Perhaps he doesn’t want to imply a Creator-Being, which also makes sense as he then describes it as “an image of what precedes God” — Possibility
I think perhaps when we get to the verses about the self, we might gain some more clarity on our differences here. I get the sense that you have an essentialist view of the self - that we ‘discover’ the self rather than construct it? — Possibility
Another tradition springing from the study of the Dao (which is closely related to medicine as treatment) was the development of the many "gongs" or training methods that lead to exercises for breath, mind, and energy. Those gongs also relate to "dances" such as the Five Animals Frolics of Hua Tuo. The language of Chinese martial arts also draws from the Tao Te Ching. — Valentinus
here were also many who were criticised for doing nothing or not enough to effect change, yet who possibly had a hand in achieving more for race equality, gay rights, etc than those who earned public recognition as ‘activists’. Wu wei is when effective change cannot be traced back to you as action. — Possibility
— T Clark
My issue with this is how do you apply this approach to creating social change? In relation to progress created by activists in women's suffrage, race equality, gay rights, etc - should they just have waited? Or is there a different nuance to acting without acting? — Tom Storm
I wonder if there could be Buddhist principles which would be in conflict with science. Buddhist thought is so much more sophisticated, if that's the right word, than psychology. — T Clark
To start, in English, being and existence mean the same thing. — T Clark
One of the members of my TTC reading group is a Tai Chi instructor. He brought a really helpful perspective to our discussions. — T Clark
Reality doesn't exist, it simply is. It is that from which all particular things arise and back into which they fall. That is something that can only be understood by non-action, wu-wei. — Wayfarer
I am glad you mention that because I was introduced to these ideas as guides to a practice. It was only after a long time of reading that I became aware of the thinking behind it. It is difficult for me not to see the work as a manual of instruction. — Valentinus
I don't disagree but who are you thinking of by way of comparison? — Tom Storm
In my mind I had Abraham Lincoln — Possibility
I agree that there are 'anonymous' people who work back of house to effect change, but usually by working very hard, by lobbying, organizing and with relentless energy. — Tom Storm
The question of whether or not the Tao exists is one I have thought a lot about. To start, in English, being and existence mean the same thing. From the way Lao Tzu uses them, it seems like they do in ancient Chinese too. One way of looking at it is that calling the Tao "non-being" and the 10,000 things "being" is figurative, poetic. I believe that's correct, but in the TTC, two conflicting understandings can be correct at the same time.
For what it's worth, I have never convinced anyone that it makes sense to think that it doesn't exist. I've found that whenever I try to explain how I see it, I have a hard time. Someone asked me "When you're asleep, does the world disappear. My answer - yes of course...but. If I can't conceptualize or describe something, I can't think about it. I can't put it in my world. In that case, I think it makes sense to say it doesn't exist. — T Clark
It would have all come to naught if the thinking of people did not change. — Valentinus
My reading of Lincoln is that he was more motivated to hold the Union together.
I agree that there are 'anonymous' people who work back of house to effect change, but usually by working very hard, by lobbying, organizing and with relentless energy. — Tom Storm
Lincoln’s intentions and motivations aside, he is historically credited with effecting change. — Possibility
I think you’re still trying to isolate 10,000 things from the Tao, but I don’t see that as Lao Tzu’s intention. It is the naming that is illusory - being is as much an aspect of the Tao as non-being, regardless of naming. — Possibility
I think the point is to recognise its potential in ourselves, and to reflect on whether our intention is to be seen to act or to effect change. I brought up Lincoln because he seems to embody the ambiguity and contradiction of it. But in trying to explain we can only speculate on the intentions of others, and recognise that we desire to justify our own. — Possibility
I think the idea of wu wei is to get past the need to be attributed with acting, to forget about establishing and consolidating cause and effect or giving credit where credit is due. When we act without acting, we forego any recognition for certain actions, and instead work collaboratively with the world. Action is then seen as spontaneous, random or a natural movement within a dynamic balance, and there is no sense of individual success, advancement or personal recognition. — Possibility
As for the Tao being the same as the 10,000 things, if that's what you're saying, the TTC is pretty ambiguous about that. Which is how Lao Tzu does things. Is my family the same as my wife, children, siblings, nieces, step mother, and cousin? I say "no." But in at least one of the verses, I don't remember which verse or which translation, the TTC says the oneness of the Tao and the 10,000 things is the mystery. So I guess I say "yes." — T Clark
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