Higher Ideals than The Profit Motive

Shawn

Higher ideals than the profit motive exist, don't they? I mean, thinking about it a little, I don't really know what's human rationality without ideals?

I studied some economics in my 20's, and with it got the 101 intro into game theory. Game theory is a strange field that reduces human rationality to a calculus of evaluating decisions on a hedonic basis of what's best for myself or for a party of interests. By definition if you calculate all the interested participants you have a profit motive behind the scenes evaluating the vector of directionality for the highest gains or oligopolies maintaining a profit motive, that eventually is called a strategy. In this motloch of interests there is a tendency of fitness of the most efficient or productive participants in a game theoretic scenario who achieve the goal of the game at a higher rate than perhaps, uninformed or poorly performing participants.

I'm a bit rough on game theory, now in my early 30's; but, am saddened that homo economicus has been reduced to this automatic strategos looking out for who's #1. While in college, a 120 IQ guy told me that Europe works to live and American's live to work.

If any of the above is true, then how the fuck do we get out of this dogmatization of human behavior through "game theory"?

javi2541997

I'm a bit rough on game theory, now in my early 30's; but, am saddened that homo economicus has been reduced to this automatic strategos looking out for who's #1. While in college, a 120 IQ guy told me that Europe works to live and American's live to work. — Shawn

It depends a lot the breach between north and south European countries but yes, this is an interesting point of view

.

If any of the above is true, then how the fuck do we get out of this dogmatization of human behavior through "game theory" — Shawn

I would sound like a dreamer but I guess the only way possible is trying to develop a new economical system. You clearly explained previously that one of the nature human interests is to develop, at least some profit. There are some countries which are happy with this system because it helps them a lot. But others, obviously not.
If we want another system and then changing the human behaviour, we have to try to change our educational system. Since Spinoza method, we are humans made to be practical not intellectual.
When you are practical, you want to be the number one in everything. What if we try and change this values? Probably we would get a different human behaviour.

Benkei

↪Shawn

Sign off the times you think the profit motive is any kind of ideal, and a higher one at that.

baker

↪Shawn

Higher Ideals than The Profit Motive

What would be a higher ideal than the profit motive?
Do list at least three such ideals.

unenlightened

What would be a higher ideal than the profit motive?
Do list at least three such ideals. — baker

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person.

baker

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person. — unenlightened

If only the meaning of those wouldn't be so easy to define in accordance with the motive for profit ...

unenlightened

If only the meaning of those wouldn't be so easy to define in accordance with the motive for profit ... — baker

Just don't though.

Tom Storm

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person. — unenlightened

Good answer. I've known many people who have chosen those values over making money many times over.

baker

↪unenlightened

I can just see a rich right winger advocating truth, justice, kindness, democracy, respect for person.

unenlightened

↪baker

Sure, why not?

baker

↪unenlightened

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. This makes them useless, other than for purposes of manipulation.

synthesis

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person.
— unenlightened

Good answer. I've known many people who have chosen those values over making money many times over. — Tom Storm

It's not either or, as the sooner (profit) allows the later (virtues).

Tom Storm

It's not either or — synthesis

It was for the people I know, but I take your point.

unenlightened

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. This makes them useless, other than for purposes of manipulation. — baker

Of course, what else would ideals be used for?

fishfry

Sign off the times you think the profit motive is any kind of ideal, and a higher one at that. — Benkei

Hasn't capitalism brought more humans out of poverty than any other system? I'm not defending the late-stage capitalism we have today. I mean in the 20th century. Compared to, say, the massive impoverishment and death caused by socialist movements in the USSR and China.

TheMadFool

Higher ideals than the profit motive — Shawn

I'd say there's nothing wrong with profit motive. It's a sentiment that defines life itself - we need to a get a little more out of something than you put in. If not, forget about economy, survival itself would be impossible.

Thus, by higher ideals, we shouldn't be looking for a replacement ideology for profit motive. What I recommend though are ancilliary ideas that can take profits, an acceptable portion of it of course, and use them to bring about desired outcomes. Such an approach seems more realistic and also likely to satisfy all parties involved. Game theoretically, it makes more sense than alternatives that aim to supplant the profit motive with higher ideals that don't give due consideration to an instinct as old as the human race itself.

unenlightened

Hasn't capitalism brought more humans out of poverty than any other system? — fishfry

For the purposes of argument, let's say it has. Let's also admit that, other things being equal, wealth is preferable to poverty. Still one might prefer poverty in a healthy environment to wealth in a toxic environment, or poverty in freedom to wealth under coercion, and so on. This is not a notion invented by postmodern far left politically correct weirdos, it dates back 2000 years or so.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, but lose his soul? — Mark 8:36

Benkei

↪fishfry

Or did the washing machine, steam engines, automation and the combustion engine, or indeed worker unions, cause this and these things merely coincided with capitalist production?

There's also a contradiction in your reply in that what you consider worthwhile appears to be the reduction of poverty but this is merely ancillary to a profit motive, even if it were the underlying cause, because the profit motive doesn't aim at reducing poverty whatsoever. The higher ideal then already seems to be reducing poverty, as opposed to a profit motive.

Considering Marx' work and his criticism of the consequences of the capitalist mode of production, I think your view of early 20th century capitalism is romanticised. The "late-stage" capitalism of today is as exploitive as it was back then.

baker

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. This makes them useless, other than for purposes of manipulation.
— baker

Of course, what else would ideals be used for? — unenlightened

So manipulation is a higher purpose than profit?

Deleted User

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

unenlightened

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. This makes them useless, other than for purposes of manipulation.
— baker

Of course, what else would ideals be used for?
— unenlightened
So manipulation is a higher purpose than profit? — baker

No. Manipulation is something one does, not an ideal or a purpose. This dialogue is not interesting me.

baker

↪unenlightened

This is what started this:

What would be a higher ideal than the profit motive?
Do list at least three such ideals.
— baker

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person. — unenlightened

Followed by:

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. This makes them useless, other than for purposes of manipulation.
— baker

Of course, what else would ideals be used for? — unenlightened

So your stance is something like:
Truth, justice, kindness, democracy, and respect for person (which can mean anything to anyone) are higher ideals than the profit motive. The use of ideals is for purposes of manipulation.

Yes?

unenlightened

So your stance is something like:
Truth, justice, kindness, democracy, and respect for person ~~(which can mean anything to anyone)~~ are higher ideals than the profit motive. — baker

Yes, but I don't accept your proposal that they mean whatever you want to make them mean. They are well understood by very ordinary folks.

The use of ideals is for purposes of manipulation.[/quote]

Yes. But it is a silly question and thus a misleading answer. If you are so depraved as to think that ideals are something to use, then I cannot imagine any other use for them than to manipulate other people. Hence my question to you as to what else you think an ideal could be used for? which you didn't answer. All clear now?

BC

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person. — unenlightened

Those "higher ideals" can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. — baker

Maybe what you mean is that one can falsely claim to hold these values, when in fact one does not.

synthesis

Maybe what you mean is that one can falsely claim to hold these values, when in fact one does not. — Bitter Crank

Yeah.

fishfry

There's also a contradiction in your reply in that what you consider worthwhile appears to be the reduction of poverty but this is merely ancillary to a profit motive, even if it were the underlying cause, because the profit motive doesn't aim at reducing poverty whatsoever. The higher ideal then already seems to be reducing poverty, as opposed to a profit motive. — Benkei

For the purposes of argument, let's say it has. Let's also admit that, other things being equal, wealth is preferable to poverty. Still one might prefer poverty in a healthy environment to wealth in a toxic environment, or poverty in freedom to wealth under coercion, and so on. This is not a notion invented by postmodern far left politically correct weirdos, it dates back 2000 years or so. — unenlightened

Is the argument here that Stalin, who killed 40 million and enslaved and impoverished the rest; and Mao, who killed 40 million, were the exemplars of non-capitalism you'd like to put up against 20th century capitalism? Or Castro's Cuba?

I hardly need to respond. The mass murder and mass impoverishment brought about by communism are a matter of historical record; as is the prosperity brought about by free market capitalism. And the economic welfare of all IS the point of capitalism. It flows naturally out of the private profit motive, as Adam Smith pointed out.

unenlightened

Is the argument here that Stalin, who killed 40 million and enslaved and impoverished the rest; and Mao, who killed 40 million, were the exemplars of non-capitalism you'd like to put up against 20th century capitalism? Or Castro's Cuba? — fishfry

No.

I hardly need to respond. — fishfry

You hardly have. Respond to Jesus, the communists aren't posting.

fishfry

Respond to Jesus, the communists aren't posting. — unenlightened

As far as I can tell from the responses to my initial remark, the communists ARE posting. I truly wish that people longing for socialism/communism or the abolishment of the free market will take an honest look at the actual track records of China, the Soviet Union, and Cuba in the 20th century. Not only in economics, but in terms of human rights and outright mass murder of their own citizens. Coming soon to a bankrupt neo-socialist empire near you.

Shawn

Truth.
Justice.
Kindness.
Democracy.
Respect for person. — unenlightened

What about democracy? Typically, it's easier to exclude the US from analysis of this feature of wealth or poverty.

Shawn

Maybe what you mean is that one can falsely claim to hold these values, when in fact one does not. — Bitter Crank

How is that qualified or evaluated?

BC

↪Shawn

Which part -- that someone has falsely claim belief & allegiance, or the beliefs themselves?

The behavior of people who actually believe in the cited values is--taken as a pattern--different than those who do not actually believe in those values. One would expect more fraudulent behavior, illegal behavior, cruelty, terror, and so on from someone who thinks truth, justice, kindness, democracy, and respect for persons are meaningless words.

As for the meaning of these -- or any other words -- there are reference sources which report how the meanings of these words have been defined in social processes. "Truth" wasn't defined on Mt. Olympus. "Truth" was defined by discussion and by people using the word in ways that others found understandable and acceptable. That's how most words come to have meaning. A few, like using "charm" to name a quark, are arbitrary.

Higher Ideals than The Profit Motive

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