I haven't read the entire book, but I have read "through" it and about it, and it is clear to me that he is an iconoclast to the scientific community, but what is striking is that he brings in Heidegger and Husserl, so he might be worth looking into. I say this because Husserl was famous for keeping science at bay in philosophical discussions, for science does not ask basic questions or go into the presuppositions of empirical research. It doesn't ask, what is a concept? How can we describe the experience that delivers the world to us? How is what we have before us as objects in the world actually constituted as "what we have before us"? An object is given in time, so what is the temporal structure of giveness?
Questions like these are ignored by science, which is why I don't go to the scientist for philosophical insight. They don't deal in basic questions, foundational questions. They often think they do, but they don't. — Constance
Sorry but, with all due respect, that's fatuous nonsense. It's like saying ... 'before Mt. Sinai the long wandering ancient Hebrew tribes stayed together "by the grace of" goober without already having had prohibited Murder, Adultery, Lying & Theft'. Even if so, that wouldn't explain every other large human grouping for the prior one hundred or so millennia at minimum prohibiting the same modes of social violence without "divine permission" and yet still function more or less as cohesive peoples like the Egyptians behind the Hebrews at Sinai and the Canaanites ahead of them. "Faith" and "grace" have meaning in the context of the rest of my previous post (pace Kierkegaard), particularly, but not only, with respect to 'seven generations thinking'.Each minute bursts in the burning room,
The great globe reels in the solar fire,
Spinning the trivial and unique away.
(How all things flash! How all things flare!)
What am I now that I was then?
May memory restore again and again
The smallest color of the smallest day:
Time is the school in which we learn,
Time is the fire in which we burn. — D.S.
the ethical/aesthetic dimension of it, the searing pain that issues forth, registers unmediated. Experience is permeated by value, but what intrigues me is the metavalue of value, that elusive "Good" or "Bad" that attends value, making the presence of pain exceed the factual. — Constance
There is no "redness" as such; this is just an abstraction from the fullness of experience, which is always in or of value. Anticipations are inherently "caring" anticipations. And this points directly to value, and puts the fate of the discussion of presence and existence in the hands of a metaethical, metaaesthetic analysis. I.e., what is value? What is the ethical/aesthetic good and bad? — Constance
It's Nietzsche for beginners. But it's mistaken. Human beings are imbued with a moral sense by evolution, and in fact - religious values are expressions of that innate moral sense; adopted when hunter gatherer tribes joined together - to forge a social group under a common belief system. — counterpunch
“Life” and “now” may not be separated, if you are alive, then it is now! — Present awareness
Where Rovelli falls short, Lisa Feldman Barrett fills in more of the puzzle for me - with a theoretical approach to emotion, awareness and energy distribution, based on empirical research in neuroscience and psychology, which (probably quite unintentionally) draws intriguing parallels with Rovelli’s restructuring of reality as consisting of energy-based events rather than objects, and explores in depth the question of what is a concept? — Possibility
. One gets the future not by itself, but in a simple continuity with the present (the concepts of resurrection and judgment being thereby laid in ruins). — Constance
Where Rovelli falls short, Lisa Feldman Barrett fills in more of the puzzle for me - with a theoretical approach to emotion, awareness and energy distribution, based on empirical research in neuroscience and psychology, which (probably quite unintentionally) draws intriguing parallels with Rovelli’s restructuring of reality as consisting of energy-based events rather than objects, and explores in depth the question of what is a concept?
I’m just saying don’t write science off just yet. I have a feeling they’ll come around eventually, and the more that philosophers are informed by - and strive to inform - the frontiers of theoretical science, the faster this may happen. — Possibility
Sorry but, with all due respect, that's fatuous nonsense. It's like saying ... 'before Mt. Sinai the long wandering ancient Hebrew tribes stayed together "by the grace of" goober without already having had prohibited Murder, Adultery, Lying & Theft'. Even if so, that wouldn't explain every other large human grouping for the prior one hundred or so millennia at minimum prohibiting the same modes of social violence without "divine permission" and yet still function more or less as cohesive peoples like the Egyptians behind the Hebrews at Sinai and the Canaanites ahead of them. "Faith" and "grace" have meaning in the context of the rest of my previous post (pace Kierkegaard), particularly, but not only, with respect to 'seven generations thinking'. — 180 Proof
Ok. I think it's more than that, Constance. Time is the structure of co-existence, or the commons, and I've sketched that. My response deliberately calls mere "experience" into question which you don't seem willing to consider. Look what idealism – yes, (proto)existentialism is idealism-in-action – has done to the secular West in the last century or so as it's dovetailed into "doing me" "my truth" "not real until I experience it" consumerism. "The leap of faith" is now nothing but the faith in leaping. Is Kierkegaard's 'subjective time' remotely relevant today? I could be way off-base but I don't think so.You are being asked to look at time as a structure of experience. — Constance
Energy distribution? Neuroscience and psychology? But what is it about this that is not outdated by a century? Not regarding specific content, but regarding it NOT being empirical in nature. Rovelli does not take the matter to its foundational level if he is still talking like this. Tell me, how does Husserl figure into this? — Constance
“Life” and “now” may not be separated, if you are alive, then it is now!
— Present awareness
This implies that an analysis of what it means to have life reveals the nature of what it is to be now. Explain, pls. — Constance
By thinking about the future, which is done in the present. Is there REALLY a past or future AT ALL? No. — Constance
Actually Kierk argued the opposite here in this short read: https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/04/18/kierkegaard-concept-of-anxiety-time/
I have read carefully a number of writings by Clark , Friston and Barrett, and I can say with confidence that their thinking is squarely within the realist tradition( not naive realism, as Barrett points out, but a more sophisticated neo-Kantian version which distinguishes between real sense data and constructed human realities). — Joshs
“I see coal as heating material; I recognise it and recognise it as useful and as used for heating, as appropriate for and as destined to produce warmth. [...] I can use [a combustible object] as fuel; it has a value for me as a possible source of heat. That is, it has value for me with respect to the fact that with it I can produce the heating of a room and thereby pleasant sensations of warmth for myself and others.[...] Others also apprehend it in the same way, and it acquires an intersubjective use-value and in a social context is appreciated and is valuable as serving such and such a purpose, as useful to man, etc.” (Husserliana, vol. IV, pp. 186f; Husserl 1989, pp. 196f) — SEP, Edmund Husserl
When you categorise, you might feel like you’re merely observing the world and finding similarities in objects and events, but that cannot be the case. Purely mental, goal-based concepts such as ‘Things That Can Protect You from Stinging Insects’ reveal that categorisation cannot be so simple and static. A flyswatter and a house have no perceptual similarities. Goal-based concepts therefore free you from the shackles of physical appearance. When you walk into an entirely new situation, you don’t experience it based solely on how things look, sound or smell. You experience it based on your goal.
So what’s happening in your brain when you categorise? You are not finding similarities in the world but creating them. When your brain needs a concept, it constructs one on the fly, mixing and matching from a population of instances from your past experience, to best fit your goals in a particular situation. — Lisa Feldman Barrett, ‘How Emotions Are Made’
that doesn’t mean they can’t inform or be informed by phenomenological idealism. — Possibility
So what’s happening in your brain when you categorise? You are not finding similarities in the world but creating them. — Lisa Feldman Barrett, ‘How Emotions Are Made’
Value is a differential, as is intention. It is not the subjective side of intentionality but both sides. There is in fact no subject and no object in the way you are conceiving them as somehow split off from each other. Value is how we find ourselves in the world and this ‘now’ is a becoming, not an immediate presence to self but transformation. The ethical/ aesthetic good and bad is a function of the ongoing organizational integrity of the process of experiential change, not a self-inhering content that hoves above or beyond or underneath ‘facts’. — Joshs
“Dan Zahavi posits that my awareness of myself cannot fundamentally be comparable to my experience of an object. For one thing, if it were mediated in this same way it would lead to an infinite regress. The I that views my subjectivity implies another I that experiences this I, and so on. Even more damaging to the claim that self-awareness is the intending of an object is that it presupposes what it is designed to explain. ”..a mental state cannot be imbued with for-me-ness simply as a result of being the object of a further mental state. Rather, if awareness of awareness is to give rise to for-me-ness, “the first order state” must already be “imbued with some phenomenally apparent quality of mine-ness” (Howell and Thompson 2017)
To avoid the specter of an infinite regress, the subjective pole of intentional awareness must be of a qualitatively different nature than the object pole, goes Zahavi's argument. He explains that the pre-reflective self-awareness that opposes, but is at the same time inseparably connected with intended objects, is a peculiar sort of experience, something of the order of a feeling rather than an objective sense. — Joshs
I want to take note of the fact that Zahavi treats both the subjective and the objective sides of intentionality as self-inhering interiorities, states, identities, before they are poles of a relation. Because he makes self-inhering content do most of the work of establishing the awareness of the affectively felt and objectively perceived sides of the bond between the subject and the world, the relation between subject and object becomes a mostly empty middle term, a neutral copula added onto the two opposing sides of the binary. In settling on feeling as a special sort of entity that does the work of generating immediate self-awareness , Zahavi is harking back to a long-standing Western tradition connecting affect, feeling and emotion with movement , action, dynamism, motivation and change. Affect is supposedly instantaneous, non-mediated experience. It has been said that ‘raw' or primitive feeling is bodily-physiological, pre-reflective and non-conceptual, contentless hedonic valuation, innate, qualitative, passive, a surge, glow, twinge, energy, spark, something we are overcome by. Opposed to such ‘bodily', dynamical events are seemingly flat, static entities referred to by such terms as mentation , rationality, theorization, propositionality, objectivity, calculation, cognition, conceptualization and perception. — Joshs
Heidegger's approach complements Kelly's. He critiques Western notions of propositional relation as external bond, tracing it back to Aristotle. As an "ontologically insufficient interpretation of the logos", what the mode of interpretation of propositional statement doesn't understand about itself is that thinking of itself as external 'relating' makes the propositional 'is' an inert synthesis, and conceals its ontological basis as attuned, relevant taking of 'something AS something'. In accordance with this affected-affecting care structure, something is understood WITH REGARD TO something else. This means that it is taken together with it, but not in the manner of a synthesizing relating.” Instead, taking something as something means transforming what one apprehends in the very act of apprehension. This integral structure of self-temporalization implies equi-primordially and inseparably affective (Befindlichkeit) and intentional-cognitive aspects. — Joshs
From Kelly's and Heidegger's perspectives, Zahavi's concerns about an infinite regress is a byproduct of the way the issue of subjectivity is being formulated, and Zahavi s solution only reaffirms the problem, which is that the affective and cognate aspects of events are artificially split into separated entities, and then have to be pieced together again in an interaction . To ground experience in radical temporality is to abandon the concept of subject and world in states of interaction, in favor of a self-world referential-differential in continuous self-transforming movement.The functioning of a construct within a hierarchical system allows Kelly to maintain along with Zahavi that one is intrinsically self-aware in every construal, whether that construction is specifically directed toward the self or an event in the world. But unlike for Zahavi, the self component of awareness is not a self-inhering feeling state. Rather, the ‘for-meness' aspect of a construed event is the contribution my construct system as a unified whole makes to the discernment of a new event in terms of likeness and difference with respect to my previous experience. In other words, the ‘background' (contrast pole) against which a new event emerges is not only a previously experienced subordinate element that the current event refers to, but it is more broadly the superordinate system as a whole that participates in the construal in an implicit sense. As discussed earlier in this paper, Kelly's organization corollary indicates that the system is functionally integral, which I interpret to mean that one's superordinate outlook is implicit in all construals. “ — Joshs
Keirk, being the sensitive man that he apparently was (with his sentience), tries to parse the emotions associated with describing time — 3017amen
Does that mean we should experience doing instead of just thinking? Can we get more out of life by doing? Or do we wear both hats... . — 3017amen
I think it is upon you to say what you think the passage means, if you assert it is something other than what I say it means.
Explain, such that I understand how this is not, as it seems - powerfully evocative of Nietzsche: — counterpunch
Ok. I think it's more than that, Constance. Time is the structure of co-existence, and I've sketched that. My response deliberately calls mere "experience" into question which you don't seem willing to consider. Look what idealism – yes, (proto)existentialism is idealism-in-action – has done to the secular West in the last century or so as it's dovetailed into "doing me" "my truth" "not real until I experience it" consumerism. "The leap of faith" is now nothing but the faith in leaping. Is Kierkegaard 'subjective time' remotely relevant today? I could be way off-base but I don't think so. — 180 Proof
But I’ll leave it there until I have looked more into Husserl in particular. — Possibility
The past is just a measurement taken from “now” to as far back as one wants to go and the future is a measurement forward. However, life itself, does not exist in the past or future, but only in the “now”. — Present awareness
the meaning of world history and the historical development of the individual thereby losing the concepts of conversion, atonement, and redemption). One gets the future not by itself, but in a simple continuity with the present (the concepts of resurrection and judgment being thereby laid in ruins). — Constance
Well christendom, the new testament has given the revelation that God or Allah is love. But since most of humanity cannot accept this simple fact I choose to say God is a mystery.
Because philosophers want to discuss God and love. And worshippers want to idolize God and love.
And atheists want to deny God and love. And politicians want to regulate God and love. And artists want to paint God and love. I just go with the flow — TaySan
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