It is not the same thing, as I've explained.

The father and mother make the child at conception. Preventing it from getting unto the wall of the uterus is abortion. If it's outside the womb it is a different situation. Pro-choice people have zero natural law instincts

If they are created outside the womb than they are human but they are outside the natural process so I think we can let them perish

Pro-choice people have zero natural law instincts — Gregory

BS. Natural Law has a huge element of "mind your own f'ing business". Pro-choice people have tons of that.

Once a zygote is formed human DNA is activated as a human being. — Gregory

It is not the same thing, as I've explained. — Gregory

What you did is to avoid any explanation. Per your definition, the millions of frozen embryos are human beings - yet you have no problem with killing them. Yet preventing a blastocyst from implanting in a woman's uterus is murder.

Letting fertilized eggs die outside the womb is not killing them. Preventing a fertilized egg from going onto the wall of the uterus is different. I can't force you to see my the difference and I wouldn't want to force my belief on you. But I've given you some ideas and you can read more in many places if you want to understand pro-life philosophy better

You think fetuses are people yet we should let people kill them. So you got a big problem there bud.

To that a pre-born entity is a person but that a mother can kill her offspring before birth shows no respect for motherhood or babies. I want to repeat that I don't come st this from a Christian perspective. My favorite philosopher is Hegel

If there is some way to save the embryos we must do it instead of taking away what we give to it for it to live

So you got a big problem there bud. — Gregory

No, it's you who has the problem. Abortion is legal and we kill people all the time.

Whenever I hear people sympathizing with a prey animal under attack, I try my best to sympathize with the predator trying to put food on the table (and feed his/her own kids) while some dickhead human comes to the rescue of the "innocent" little prey animal. — James Riley

I sympathise with both prey and predator, but generally more so with the predator, because a quick death by having the neck severed is preferable to a slow death by starvation. I have occasionally rescued prey animals from domestic pets, but that's because they can be assumed to be well fed without needing to catch and eat prey on their own initiative. (I imagine you're not too keen on the idea of pets at all - would I be right?) I live in the suburbs, and we quite often get foxes wandering around in the daytime looking for food, looking very thin and, to my inexpert eye, mangy. They are a by-product of human society, which fucks up the natural order and doesn't care what misery it causes to other species.

'm not going to respond to you on this because there were other ways to respond to what I initially said instead of saying you'd be happy to perform an abortion. Since you're a Nazi I'm not going to reason with you because it's my reason connected with ethical sense vs your reason connected to evil. There no real way to have a discussion with you even though your arguments are the same as others. It's just about the best way to deal with you — Gregory

Ridiculous. What is wrong with someone who supports abortion of pre-sentient foetuses saying they would be willing to perform the abortion themselves? It merely shows that I am honest and consistent. I can't help it if you are too squeamish to accept the fact that I would practise what I preach.

BTW, stop calling me a Nazi. It's factually incorrect, it's libellous, and it demonstrates for all to see that you are so incompetent at philosophy that you have to substitute insults for argument.

(I imagine you're not too keen on the idea of pets at all - would I be right?) — Herg

You are right, but I'm a hypocrite. I have a dog and three cats. I love the dog and one of the cats. Two kill mice and gophers, and I'm good with that, but I hate when they kill birds. We keep them inside 90% of the time because we have eagles, bears, mountain lion, coyote, fox, etc. We don't have any wolves, but they are in the hopper so we can hope. I've had horses and other critters.

But I've often wondered if domestication of species was original sin. You take something and deprive it of it's essence. That can be utilitarian but I don't think it's good.

(I imagine you're not too keen on the idea of pets at all - would I be right?)
— Herg
You are right, but I'm a hypocrite. I have a dog and three cats. — James Riley

We're in the same boat. We currently have one dog, and in the past we've had three other dogs, 16 cats, and 24 guinea pigs. We feed our dogs and cats on tinned food which no doubt comes from intensive farming of cows, sheep and pigs, which I disapprove of on moral grounds. so I am also a hypocrite, but I don't have time and energy to give them meat from kinder sources, and besides, we're vegetarian, so we don't have meat in the house. It's an ethical quagmire.

But I've often wondered if domestication of species was original sin. You take something and deprive it of it's essence. That can be utilitarian but I don't think it's good.

Well, I wouldn't talk of essences, not believing in them, but yes, I think it's bad. But we're all in it up to our necks. Slavery of humans was largely abolished in the 19th century, but we still enslave animals. If there's a God, he's not going to be happy with us when we finally meet him.

It doesn't respect pregnancy but you can't see that because you want to be an abortion doctor. — Gregory

*sigh* No I don't. It sounds like a rather messy and unpleasant job, and there's a high risk of being assaulted by deluded pro-life extremists like you.

'Respect pregnancy'? Why should I? Pregnancy is not a person. I respect sentient beings. In this universe, as I keep pointing out (and you have no answer to this), sentience is the only thing that matters to itself, and hence the only thing that matters morally.

You know, if you would stop caricaturing me and actually consider what I'm saying, maybe even your scrambled brain would begin to understand the point I'm making. But you'll never get there while you persist in thinking of me as some cartoon figure in a bloodstained white coat. Your prejudices are stopping you thinking clearly.

James Riley

Actually it is up to men to control woman in some ways because women can't be happy unless they are controlled by men in some way — Gregory

And YOU have the nerve to call ME a Nazi?!!?

Where is Margaret Atwood when we need her?

↪tim wood

It's not about logic on paper but real life reality (existential reality). Hitler said Jews weren't people. The president of Poland said gays aren't people. Pro choicers are doing the same thing with a group of individuals because the littler persons are invisible to the eye without ultrasounds, etc. — Gregory

False analogy. Jews and gays are sentient, pre-sentient foetuses are not. When are you going to face up to this?

↪EricH

You're trying to dissect pregnancy with a Nazi-like mind. — Gregory

Hey, EricH, now you and I are BOTH Nazis! If you're not too busy tomorrow, shall we invade Poland?

D'you think maybe Gregory is trolling us all? I really hope so.

but we still enslave animals. — Herg

I was hinting at that with the "know better" argument but I wasn't as brave as you. However, since the idea's been broached, I believe that if we are still around in 100 year or so, humans will be looking back and wondering WTF we were thinking. Some of them will say "Oh, well, it was a different time, and they didn't know any better." BS. We knew. And I hope someone then corrects the record, saying "They knew."

But I'm a hunter and I've go no truck with killing and I respect predators. I think we are omnivores and I love meat. I just try (and fail) to live in grace with what I eat. I only hunt what I consider to be prey species and none that mate for life. I did try being a vegetarian for two years, but fell off the wagon and never went back.

I used to represent one of the largest ag companies in the world, and as part of discovery in USDC, we toured the slaughter house under an alleged CWA violation. I won't tell you about the fetus dance in the basement, but I will share a poem I wrote back around that time:

Next!

No longer wild, no longer free
Domestic, you belong to me
But the sparkle in your eye
Makes my ownership a lie

No matter what that we have done
You are still another one
I know this now in empathy
As I watch your tragedy

Up the ally on your way
To where you’re going to die today
The smell of death and anxious fear
Now you fathom what is near

The bellows of the ones before
Who’ve passed beyond the cold steel door
Still not sure, you stay in line
Past the gates the false lights shine

If it is the worst to be
Time permits you fight or flee
But now the noise and sight to greet
A head-knocked friend slides at your feet

Any chance that it won’t be?
Look around most desperately
Your Sacred Hoop spilt on the floor
Down the drain to ever more

I believe that if we are still around in 100 year or so, humans will be looking back and wondering WTF we were thinking. — James Riley

You're more optimistic than I am. Nice poem, BTW. As we're sharing, I'll post one of mine.

The Vivisector

Observe this man. His searching eyes
stare at you with a cold surmise.
He would strip naked, if he could,
your circuitry of nerves and blood,
probing the mysteries within
the smooth frustration of your skin.

You're safe. Enlightened laws decree
that rat and cat and chimpanzee
must lie beneath his knife instead.
The soft-boiled egg of each new head
he slices open, and extracts
its yolk of appetising facts.

What, though, if in that brain of brains
a spark of pity yet remains?
Does he not fear to one day stand,
the scalpel shaking in his hand,
struck by one paralysing thought -
the weltering horrors he has wrought?

The risk is slight. This man is wise,
and knows, behind his scalpel eyes,
a truth no saint or sage has taught -
truth none the less, and dearly bought:
strokes that tear others' lives apart
cauterise the human heart.

This man is pure in his ideals.
The more he learns, the less he feels.
Down corridors of pain, he sends
his fellow creatures to their ends,
and some god in a hell of ice
is well pleased with the sacrifice.

The Vivisector — Herg

:100: :heart:

It's not about insults. Your abortion stance is contrary to what your soul tells you.

Babies have heart beats and brain waves by the tenth week. They are alive and sentient at conception.

For those faced with those decisions there is a very real difference between stopping machines you set up and shooting the person in the head. This is not an "on paper" issue. It's life and blood reality — Gregory

I completely agree: huge difference between a head shot and turning off the machines. The headshot is relatively instant and as such, much more humane. Turning off the machines means the body lingers, gasps if it can, and if there is brain function remaining, is acutely aware of the impending death, which, depending on the resilience and strength of the organism, can take quite awhile. Gasping, struggling, choking, and slowly fading away.

Personally I will take the bullet option, ideally while I am sleeping.

Go turn off a machine and start counting...it lasts much longer than a gunshot.

Abortion isn't mercy killing firstly. Also, are you for suicide?

It's weird how grown adults can be so ignorant of moral rules. But then again, considering how miserable everyone seems in this society it makes sense

I am for personal autonomy. You make your decisions based on your values; I can respect that. I make mine based on mine. As we are not each other, your values have, and should have, no influence over me, or my actions, as my values should not influence you.

So, yes, to answer your question directly, I am supporter of the individual's choice. If Bob wants to live, great. Let's see if we can help him live well. If he wants to die, let's help him do that well also. If Mary wants to bear her child, or not, same thing. I am not interested in checking with anyone except the primary individual involved.

Respect all life equally; not just the human.

What about the autonomy of the baby?

What about the autonomy of the baby? — Gregory

The baby is not autonomous.

Sure it is