• thewonder
    1.4k
    If you're willing to entertain certain theories of totalitarianism, some of which do originate in the Right, with an open enough mind to come to a set of conclusions about the Soviet Union, you will realize that there is a certain degree of veracity to the claim that Marxism-Leninism is a "political religion", which is a rather high flown way of saying that it is just simply a mass cult, an attempt to, though, as a self-respecting libertarian socialist, I would never abandon something like free association in the name of some sort of botched pragmatism, establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, or "immanetize the eschatonon", is not only sanctimonious but also necessarily ethically suspect, despite whatever rationalizations may have been made so as to suggest that Communism is an ostensibly "scientific" historical process and not an eschatological humanitarian project, which, in my opinion, only further vitiates the ideology, Karl Marx, whose evocative description of the Paris Commune, "the dictatorship of the proletariat", was later appropriated by Vladimir Lenin, whose political legacy was later exploited by Josef Stalin, for all the nuance, complexity, dynamics, and and skepticism of his theories, by his treatment of Mikhail Bakunin, whom I loathe to defend, or Max Stirner, was kind of demagogic, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who, perhaps, sacrificed too much in historical scholarship in order to draw a clear through line between Lenin and Stalin, Hannah Arendt, whose, like it or not, The Origins of Totalitarianism does seem to be what began "horseshoe theory", and Leszek Kołakowski are just simply good authors, it is quite common for the Left as a whole to completely ignore or dismiss dissident movements within the former Soviet Union, and that there really are people out there who do casually talk about decapitating their political opponents via the guillotine, you do kind of begin to resent having brought yourself up through a myriad of different left-wing ideologies who, to varying degrees, do seem to be somehow complicit within Soviet apologetics.

    Having developed this resentment, what you immediately realize is that you can't really leave the Left. I could give you a cursory overview of the rest of the political spectrum so as to explain as to just why this is, but, for brevity's sake, I would just take my word for that, from any anti-authoritarian perspective, you're effectively relegated to either the libertarian Left or the "radical Center", which is another way of referring to a kind of well-reasoned Liberalism that is particularly concerned with human rights. Because there has now become only one political position for you to maintain, all that you really any longer do is engage in critique. What, while doing so, you do not encounter is an ostensive implicitly Marxist-Leninist media dominant "Liberal elite". What, however, you will encounter is left-wing academia and what left-wing academia will do is to ignore you or anyone else with similar concerns almost entirely. This is extraordinarily easy for them to do, as they can always rely upon an appeal to the hysterical reaction to Communism in general, particularly in the United States, or, accuse you of being complicit within a Western Exceptionalist project orchestrated by the Central Intelligence Agency, as, every last point that I just mentioned was used for just that.

    What you then begin to suspect is that thought-terminating clichés like the "Liberal elite" may be more clever than you might expect. The Left does kind of have a tendency to be intellectually domineering, psychologically abusive, and to consistently fall back upon an appeal to ideology, effectively amounting to an assumption on their part that, to be given a voice within a debate, you would have first have to have read this or that text by Marx or this that interpretation of it and so on and so forth, all of which do have the effect of creating an intellectual class that does comprise of an elite, which, though clearly the situation in the West is not so dire, was often referred to as the apparat in the former Soviet Union and its satellites. Regardless as to what the CIA claims about this, what I do suspect is that they want for it to occur. Why this is, I suspect, is that they want to leave the West with only two options. You can choose between the apparently Liberal democratic West and the either nascent or evident totalitarianism of the rest of the world.

    What I am suggesting is that there needs to be a "third camp". We are told, by Anarchists and Liberals alike, that it exists already and has always existed. When I consider the general political ethos of the world at large, however, I do feel so inclined to suspect that it has been nothing more than a political sect. In order for it to, I do think that a rather sober analysis of the Soviet political legacy is just simply requisite.
  • thewonder
    1.4k
    One thing I've noticed on the part of the Left is to just simply deny any affiliation with the former Soviet Union whatsoever. During the October Revolution, the Bolsheviks were supported by a set of political factions within the libertarian Left, who, granted, did, by in large, turn on them during the Russian Civil War, but can only be so absolved from any degree of historical complicity. The Anarchists fought alongside the Soviets during the Spanish Civil War and the Soviet Union does have a longstanding history of sympathy within Western left-wing academia, despite this thankfully having changed, beginning, perhaps, with either the New York Times's publication of "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences" or the dawn of the New Left, though, of course, there have been detractors here and there since before Lenin was even capable of taking power.

    I don't know that the above post explains this well, and, so, I will use a comparison. I think that it's kind of like being a politically active German citizen. What you can do is to dismiss the claim that, by virtue of being born in Germany, you are a Nazi. What you can't do is to just simply ignore the political legacy of Nazi Germany. What, as it does concern the Soviet Union, the Left seems to have done is precisely that.

    Perhaps there is more in the beaten way of critique than I am giving them credit for, though?
  • thewonder
    1.4k
    I don't think that that quite gets at what I'm trying to glean at either.

    A good example from the Left is that of the concept of "state capitalism", which originates in Anarchism, but was popularized by a particular sect of Trotskyism. While I can't imagine that labor conditions in the former Soviet Union were at all good, it does seem self-evident to me that that idea is just kind of way of suggesting that, clearly, what went amiss there was just simply their political opponents' doing. There's a lot of things that are kind of odd about the Left like this that go almost completely unaddressed.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Left is to just simply deny any affiliation with the former Soviet Union whatsoever.thewonder

    I don't really care for politics or utopianism but I have known many leftists over the years who would argue that Russia was never a Marxist state, just a dictatorship. Chomsky has made the point about the revolution being betrayed pretty much the same year it started. Given Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky's status as sociopaths, it's not hard to see how things went amiss.

    This reminds me of all the Christians who argue that the Vatican and all the dreadful sins of Christianity over the centuries (and now) were not done by true Christians. In this vein, there's that quote from Chesterton - The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.” There are people in the left who would substitute Christian with Communist.

    All revolutionary fervor aside, I tend to agree with Milan Kundera - You build a utopia and very soon there's a need to build a small concentration camp.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    I am a great fan of Milan Kundera and wished that I listened to him better when I was younger.

    To the credit of the libertarian Left, there is a longstanding history of their being persecuted by Marxist-Leninists and the like, but definitely an obvious aversion to facing up to the Soviet legacy.

    For me, there's a certain tension as it concerns ideals and the concept of utopia.

    Marx and Engels actually wrote at length criticizing such inclinations, first in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific and later in The German Ideology, which I haven't entirely read and wouldn't expect for anyone else to either, despite what is seminal of the latter. From what I remember of researching this, though, with kind of a lot of rhetoric, they have this way of associating Liberal ideals with their concept of ideology in opposition to the quasi-deterministic economic theory that they put forth. It's a very complex work of political philosophy, but there's a way of suggesting to that it kind of amounts to their rather spurious claim that not believing in an inevitable Communist revolution is somehow delusional. Marx also had this idea of free association, which is kind of like the total freedom from coercion, and more or less the end goal of Communism that a lot of later Marxists abandoned for being impractical or "utopian". Despite the Soviet Union's evident utilization of Communism as a utopian project with things like the New Soviet Person, within Marxist-Leninist discourse, dismissing ideas as being somehow utopian, idealistic, or ideological, is often a way of justifying some of the more authoritarian elements of the political philosophy.

    What I suspect of William F. Buckley's utilization of Eric Vogelin's concept is that it ultimately was just kind of this way to suggest that people just have to cope with however it is that the world currently is because of that any attempt to change it for the better could potentially result in political catastrophe.

    Anyways, as it concerns ideals and utopia, I think that there's a great difference between sanctimony and whatever you want to call virtue or righteousness and attempting to create as ideal of a world as you can while you're here and believing that you have established the final project for all of humanity. A person has to be both resolute and humble to be considered in the right. It's quite common in heroic narratives for the protagonist to have potentially destructive power. I think that this somehow speaks to the central conflict inherent to cultivating any good way of life. I don't think of myself as the protagonist of an epic, though.

    I've never heard that Chesterton quote before, but found for it to be kind of illuminating. Thanks for sharing.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    :up:

    Anyways, as it concerns ideals and utopia, I think that there's a great difference between sanctimony and whatever you want to call virtue or righteousness and attempting to create as ideal of a world as you can while you're here and believing that you have established the final project for all of humanity.thewonder

    I'm always terrified by anyone who thinks they know what's best for other people and what 'should' happen. Doesn't matter if it is the right, the left, a guru, a therapist or a rabbi.
  • hwyl
    87
    Well, there is a perfectly viable ideology of Social Democracy which predated the Soviet Union and has absolutely nothing to do with that hateful tyranny. The modern Nordic countries are a good example of that compromise between the state and the free market within the framework of liberal democracy.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    You do have to let the world become however it naturally does and can't impose your will upon the world, but there are a few basic inferences about society that I do think a person can make. It's probably generally better for it to be libertarian rather than authoritarian, egalitarian rather than inequitable, and peaceful rather than violent. There's no reason to act like an ethical pseud, but you can make a general ought statement about society in casual conversation.

    When I was younger, I was drawn to this kind of "hippie utopianism", which, despite what was absurd of it, I feel like I had let myself be moved too far away from. People would say that it was idealistic or utopian. If the conversation would last any longer, they'd often talk about what can be done in the name of utopianism or even reference the Soviet project. Though ultimately, as is a partial point of this post, a fair critique of the Soviet Union, I did feel kind of like that, of the celebrities who could have been likely to commit genocide, John Lennon probably wasn't one of them.

    Another thing that I'll say about the Left is that it hasn't really taught me very much other than how to be critical. I can give such piercing analysis or spit out such extraordinary vitriol, but often find it difficult to just simply hold a good conversation. There are reasons for every neurosis, but they are neuroses nonetheless.

    Being said, I will make another attempt to explain this well.

    Hans Scholl was a man who I don't have very much in common with, especially as it concerns political philosophy, but have always respected, which is rare, as, though I am loathe to use this term, I can be guilty of a certain degree of recalcitrance. He also happens to have been an idealist. What I suspect about a person who commands such respect is that, through whatever circumstances have led them to become as they are, they have developed a way of life that is in accordance with their ideals. This, I think, both is and ought to be inspiring.

    Conversely, you have a man like Vladimir Lenin, who some revere, but I think was kind of a revolutionary chauvinist and minor autocrat. By both his theory and practice, it seems like he just kind of thought that he had a right to wage the October Revolution with or without the support of the Russian populace.

    That's, perhaps, an overly simplistic way of explaining what I mean about idealism, but I honestly just haven't thought this well enough out to do so in any other manner.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    I, too, like the Nordic Model, but the Social Democrats just have to cope with the political legacy of a different totalitarian regime, being the Third Reich.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    One thing I've noticed on the part of the Left is to just simply deny any affiliation with the former Soviet Union whatsoeverthewonder
    Of course social democracy movements have not been historically any friends to the communists, yet otherwise you are right. But as social democrats have been a lot in power in the West, being a communist has it merits in academic and intellectual circles and they do use this denial.

    The right wing totalitarian ideologies don't have this ability (which is a blessing). You can obviously notice the difference even here on PF. Anyone claiming on this site that "Hitler simply got National socialism wrong, but it otherwise it's a valid workable ideology" would immediately get banned. To ponder about the Marxist ideology can easily done without any reference to what the historical outcomes of these experiments have been.

    I think there's a simple reason for this. In the Cold War era the Soviet system looked like an alternative and it's doom wasn't at all evident. Hence try criticize Western capitalism by being a supporter of Marxism-Leninism was a totally viable and tolerated position in the Western intellectual and academic circles. And after the collapse of the Soviet system these people continued with their careers as if nothing happened. Now many of them can indeed criticize the past quite well (perhaps with a selective memory). There were no American tanks in the Red Square and we don't have a New Russia hell bent on de-Sovietification and going after communists and the Soviet times as (West) Germany has had against nazis and the Third Reich. The German phenomenon of self-criticism and active separation from the past isn't there. If it would be in Russia so and we would be constantly barraged by a Russian media showing the misery and violence of the Soviet system, then the attitudes even in Western academic circles would be different.

    And of course, China still is lead by communists, who now seem to be limiting the capitalist cat's ability to catch mice, that for thirty years or so has done a great job.

    2mplghv02wg31.jpg
  • ssu
    8.7k
    I, too, like the Nordic Model, but the Social Democrats just have to cope with the political legacy of a different totalitarian regime, being the Third Reich.thewonder
    Nordic countries? How?

    Swedes luckily stayed out of the WW2, Denmark and Norway were occupied and my country after being narrowly saved by German assistance in the summer of 1944, had then to fight them. I remember that my grandfather told how the withdrawing German forces methodically destroyed everything useful in Lapland (even telephone poles were blasted into firewood) and some soldiers got mine-shocked due to the amount of mines planted nearly everywhere. Luckily they weren't then made of plastic, as then they would be going off even now under the feet of the unfortunate wanderer. German pünktlichkeit.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    And after the collapse there these people continued with their careers as if nothing happened. Now many of them can indeed criticize the past quite well. Tssu

    The leftists I have known in academia and publishing mainly renounced their support of Marxism and the Soviet project in 1956, when the Soviet tanks invaded Hungary. The rest of them were well and truly out of it by 1974, Solzhenitsyn's book taking out the last of the naive or (look the other way) apologists. Some of these former radicals of course became neocons, a whole different problem for the world.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    What I am suggesting is that there needs to be a "third camp".thewonder

    The "third camp" or "Third Way" are the Fabians. Unfortunately, they are just another form of totalitarian communism. G B Shaw who was one of their leaders said "we must get Socialism out of its democratic grooves".

    Plus, you forget big tech and big bucks who are pulling the strings from behind the scenes. What camp do you put them in and how?

    And, yes, Kolakowski is a very good author. Unfortunately, on this forum he is deemed to be an "idiot".
  • thewonder
    1.4k
    Nordic countries? How?ssu

    I was referring to what happened in Germany. That the German Social Democratic party betrayed the Communist Party of Germany during the Spartacist Uprising and set in motion the course of events which did result in the establishment of the Third Reich is a major talking point for kind of a lot of Communists. If you know any of them on Facebook, you can go more than two weeks without seeing a post about it.

    The SPD, I am pretty sure, is the world's largest Social Democratic party. I wasn't accusing the Nordic countries of being complicit in aiding the Axis powers during the Second World War, though.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    Within the discourse of the "Cultural Cold War", the "third camp" is a position outside of the Western Exceptionalist ethos that culminated in The End of History or any form of vague support for the former Soviet Union.

    Though it existed before then, it came about around the time that "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences" was published in The New York Times, and later developed alongside the dissident movements in the former Soviet Union. Though it does have a clear history, there seems to me to still be a tendency to ignore said dissidents and a lack of serious scholarship as it concerns the Soviet catastrophe. The estimated Soviet death toll is somewhere between twenty and one-hundred million people. While I understand that they habitually destroyed their own records, that seems like all too great of a discrepancy.

    I remember not knowing what figure to cite for the number of people put to death by either the Reds or the Whites during the Russian Civil War. It seemed like any figure was just kind of a speculative spin on my part.
  • baker
    5.7k
    You do have to let the world become however it naturally does and can't impose your will upon the worldthewonder
    Why not??
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    the German Social Democratic party betrayed the Communist Party of Germany during the Spartacist Uprisingthewonder

    How did the SPD "betray" the Communists? Most German Socialists were Social Democrats not Communists and the Communists wanted to impose Marxism of the Russian Bolshevik type. The Socialists didn't want Germany to become a Soviet colony as planned by Lenin and Trotsky. Don't forget Lenin and Trotsky wanted to establish a Soviet-controlled United States of Europe for which purpose they set up the Communist International (COMINTERN).
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    The Sparacist Uprising, also known as the January Uprising, was led by Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg, who can be described as having been council communists. Luxemburg, I think, explicitly referred to herself as such and was among the first in the Left to come out against Lenin. It was a spontaneous revolt that was crushed by the German military at the bequest of the SPD. The relationship that they had established with the military resulted in that a number of what you might call "proto-Fascist" officials were given the positions of power that do seem to have paved the way for that the Nazis to have been capable of establishing their regime.

    If you ask a Communist about this, I am sure that they will inform you better than I ever could. It's one of the few things that they won't slant to the point of just flat out lying to you.

    The leftists I have known in academia and publishing mainly renounced their support of Marxism and the Soviet project in 1956, when the Soviet tanks invaded Hungary. The rest of them were well and truly out of it by 1974, Solzhenitsyn's book taking out the last of the naive or (look the other way) apologists. Some of these former radicals of course became neocons, a whole different problem for the world.Tom Storm

    This is more than true, but, to my experience, at least, invoking the dissident movement in Czechoslovakia in any left-wing circles is still likely to get you ignored and for people to assume that you are somehow "petit bourgeois", a more or less empty signifier, or "Liberal" in the way that Communists throw around the term, "Liberal", as a pejorative. Invoking the Hungarian Revolution is likely to get certain Marxist-Leninists to claim that you are somehow a "crypto-Fascist", an existing phenomenon that, despite whatever historical claims they have to the contrary, bears little to no relevance to any conversation about the events in Hungary in 1956. Invoking the dissident movement in Poland is likely to get any faction of the Left to merely assume that you are somehow in league with the American Right.

    You don't exclusively see this sort of thing from the Old Left. For all that is veritable of the critique in this pamphlet, Solidarity was also just kind of castigating the Czech dissidents, effectively dismissing them as a technocratic Liberal reformists. You'll see this kind of vitriol from the libertarian Left with more or less any dissident movement that is out of keeping with the general ethos of left-wing academia as a whole.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    It was a spontaneous revolt that was crushed by the German military at the bequest of the SPDthewonder

    So, what you are saying is that the SPD should have allied itself with the Communists (who wanted to overthrow the government) against the military? Is that what you would have done?
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    I am saying that the SPD's alliance and appointment of various figures within the German military led to the collapse of the Weimar Republic, and, so, kind of? The crushing of the Spartacist Revolt is one of the oft-cited examples of why collaboration with such parties in the name of facilitating an effective government fails for good reason. Establishing people who could be so inclined to do something like wage a coup d'état in positions of power is not only a strategic, but also an ethical mistake. I feel like that ought to be simply cogent.

    Personally, I may have even supported the Spartacists. Surely council communism would've been preferable to the collapse of the Weimar Republic. I am a Pacifist, though, and, so, I don't know, perhaps some other measures could've been taken so that the KPD did not wage a revolution. I kind of doubt that they even could've been capable of doing so.

    They say that hindsight is 20/20, and, so, it's easy to speculate upon what should or could have been done, but, even active members of the SPD are willing to admit that enlisting the aid of the German military in the political suppression of the Spartacist Revolt was probably a mistake on their part.

    I also think that you may have confused the KPD as it was with Liebknecht and Luxemburg at its helm with the more Marxist-Leninist doctrine that it later adopted. I don't think that it was until the split between Grigory Zinoviev and Josef Stalin that it became as such.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Personally, I may have even supported the Spartacists.thewonder

    I thought you might. But why support a radical minority against the will of the majority?
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    There's a certain irony to invoking a majoritarian ethos in a conversation about the legacy of Bolshevism, I think.

    Hear me out on this.

    If you go to a Communist forum and say something like, "They say that Communism sounds great in theory, but fails in practice. To my limited understanding, the taking of power by one, Vladimir Lenin, was somewhat exemplary of this. How do you respond to the charge that Lenin was just simply autocratic?", what is extraordinarily likely to happen is for this or that left-wing faction to walk you through a rather spurious and elaborate ideology so as to conscript you within this or that left-wing sect, perhaps somewhat paradoxically concluding by sharing a link to Slavoj Zizek's "The Leninist Freedom".

    If, however, you go to any left-wing forum, be it Anarchist, Socialist, or Communist, and ask, "I, myself am sympathetic to Social Democracy, but, in passing conversation, I was told that the SPD betrayed the KPD during the Spartacist Uprising and set in motion the course of events that would lead to the collapse of the Weimar Republic. Is this true?", you will be given a lengthy delineation upon just how and why it is with all of the relevant details and figures. While the other party may still attempt to conscript you within this or that political faction, all of the information that you will be given will be completely verifiable.

    If you go to an active member of the SPD and ask the same question, it is not likely that you will be given all of the relevant information, but they will probably say something to the effect of, "Well, something had to be done about that the Communists had boycotted the elections, but, as that was what laid the rudiments for the collapse of the Weimar Republic, yeah."

    Because of the event in question, those two parties do hate each other and have never politically collaborated since, but, when both of them are willing to give you a consistent analysis of the events in retrospect, I would suggest that such analysis is just simply apt.

    Of my own political standpoint, I don't think that Anarcho-Pacifism has ever been within the majority, despite that I should like for it to be, but do see no reason to change it just simply because of that it is what most people don't agree with. Any innovative idea begins apart from prevailing wisdom. Where the world be if everyone only ever agreed to what was generally accepted and understood? We'd still be behind the Copernican Revolution.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    The leftists I have known in academia and publishing mainly renounced their support of Marxism and the Soviet project in 1956, when the Soviet tanks invaded Hungary. The rest of them were well and truly out of it by 1974, Solzhenitsyn's book taking out the last of the naive or (look the other way) apologists. Some of these former radicals of course became neocons, a whole different problem for the world.Tom Storm
    Well, it's said that being communist was hip in the 20's while in the 30's it had already passed as the informed noticed what Stalin was doing in the Workers Paradise.

    I'd say many intellectuals denounce (or renounce) their actual beliefs they had ten to twenty years ago. I'll argue that many now of those who are woke will be in the 2030's proclaiming that they have all the time been against wokeness of the 2010's and 2020's. Assuming there's a new trendy way for the intellectuals to be.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Maybe. In life the interesting question regarding beliefs is who really believes what they say they believe and who is holding the belief for other reasons (posturing, peer group, fashion, controversy).

    In relation to 'woke' is this not a term of the right - an updated companion to 'political correctness' and a largely a pejorative? Does anyone actually say they are woke? Or is is said about an individual? I do what I can to avoid political fashions and debates.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    It's not a very pertinent comment to make, but I'm struck by how the first sentence of the OP has reminded me, suddenly and forcefully, that I found works like Joyce's Ulysses and Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury particularly annoying reads.
  • thewonder
    1.4k

    I occasionally entertain myself by attempting to use as many commas within one sentence as humanly possible. What of it?
  • ssu
    8.7k
    Personally, I may have even supported the Spartacists. Surely council communism would've been preferable to the collapse of the Weimar Republic.thewonder
    So instead of having later just the Soviet Union and Red China we would have earlier a Soviet Germany and Soviet Russia? That likely would have just made WW2 happen far more earlier. Or for WW1 to continue well into the 1920's.

    Of course, one never knows, but the bottom line typically has been that as the emphasis has been on the revolution with a clear ideological and political class enemy, these experiments lead to authoritarian rule with a strongman emerging just to keep the whole thing from collapsing. And the Spartacists where as their name they adopted quite bellicose from start. Without those safety valves as the American revolution created for itself, many revolutions end up going the way the French Revolution went.

    A good question is if the Soviet Union would have been able to exist without Stalin. The standard leftist narrative is that it was great when Lenin was in charge, but unfortunately then Stalin took power. Yet it might be that it was Stalin the Soviet system needed. Or Mao in the case of China.

    Agree. In life the interesting question regarding beliefs is who really believes what they say they believe and who is holding the belief for other reasons (posturing, peer group, fashion, controversy).Tom Storm
    Yet doesn't that fit perfectly post-modernism? Truth doesn't exist and it's all a power play!
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    Yet doesn't that fit perfectly post-modernism? Truth doesn't exist and it's all a power play!ssu

    Kind of. But there is a difference. These folk aren't relativists and they don't deny truth - it just doesn't matter to them.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k


    You must find yourself most entertaining.

    But aside from matters of taste, of which it's said there can be no dispute, I think that as a narrative or rhetorical device it's as Tom Storm suggests--intricate and confusing.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    If, however, you go to any left-wing forum, be it Anarchist, Socialist, or Communist, and ask, "I, myself am sympathetic to Social Democracy, but, in passing conversation, I was told that the SPD betrayed the KPD during the Spartacist Uprising and set in motion the course of events that would lead to the collapse of the Weimar Republic. Is this true?",thewonder

    I think I understand what you're trying to say. However, the Communists (KPD) had just above 10% of the vote, so they were a minority and the Spartacists were a faction within the Communist minority.

    But it’s interesting to read what Luxemburg had to say:

    “Only the nationalization of the large landed estates, as the technically most advanced and most concentrated means and methods of agrarian production, can serve as the point of departure for the socialist mode of production on the land. Of course, it is not necessary to take away from the small peasant his parcel of land, and we can with confidence leave him to be won over voluntarily by the superior advantages first of union in cooperation and then finally of inclusion in the general socialized economy as a whole […] the property right must first of all be turned over to the nation, or to the state, which, with a socialist government, amounts to the same thing” – R Luxemburg, The Russian Revolution

    So, what Luxemburg is saying is that land must to be taken over by the “nation” which is actually the state which is the government which is the Socialist Party which is (ideally) run by people like Luxemburg herself ....

    Obviously, most Germans - and most people in their right mind - would object to that.
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