And Jews can go to New York.

This is nuts. — Manuel

Sure. They shouldn't have gone there to create Zion. It was a terrible mistake. Those who supported them were used to screwing over the middle east, so they didn't think about the morality of it.

Originally the Palestinians welcomed the Jews, but that's not what Jews wanted.

I know the story. It's beyond tragic. Why would someone feel the need to pile bullshit on top of it?

Crazy how people just reframe the core issue, an occupying apartheid state, to this. — Maw

Is that the core issue? I don't know anything about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. I'm just reading what people are posting here, e.g. StreetlightX agreeing here that all inevitable civilian casualties are war crimes, saying here that all war is unethical, and saying here that's he's just here to "discuss the murder of flesh and blood children by an apartheid state."

So should I be concerned more with the civilian victims of the fighting or with the reasons for the fighting (or is it equal)?

I'm a pro-Palestine American Jew, and having been conditioned, if not demanded, to support Israel for 30 years, it's hard not to feel a tinge of self-disgust watching Jews dancing and cheering at the Western Wall, waving the Magen David. — Maw

What is upsetting about Jews parading around with the Israeli flag? I get that it can be provocative to Palestinians, but what exactly is wrong with it? I understand that there's far right Jewish Israelis who support a "greater Israel" but I don't think this is what most Jews support. As an American Jew, most of my experience within Jewish communities has indicated to me that most Jews support a two state solution and just want peace.

But this is what there is.

First of all stop stealing more land.

Then go back to resolution 242, create two states.

Then we can proceed.

Is that the core issue? I don't know anything about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. — Michael

ok

What is upsetting about Jews parading around with the Israeli flag? — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah nothing upsetting about Jews waving the Israeli flag, dancing and cheering as a fire breaks out near the third holiest site for Muslims.

So should I be concerned more with the victims of the fighting or with the reasons for the fighting? — Michael

There's no single rule.

Number of casualties and who is murdered probably are (probably) the priority.

The history is long, complex, ugly. But there's substantial scholarly evidence that time and time again it's been Israel who has rejected peace in favor of expansion. It happened in 67 when besides Gaza and the West Bank, they took the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai from Egypt.

Egypt offered a full peace treaty, not even recognizing Gaza and the West Bank in 1970. Israel considered the option, but rejected it in favor of incorporating the Sinai to Israel. They were building a city their, Yamit.

After the 73' war, they had to withdraw from the Sinai AND recognize Palestinian grievances this time around, which was worse from the Israeli perspective.

But they've continued building in the occupied territories. It does this because it has the power to do so. Israeli is acting like any other imperial state.

But this is what there is.

First of all stop stealing more land.

Then go back to resolution 242, create two states.

Then we can proceed. — Manuel

Notice how you can agree with this without making any false assertions?

After we pounded Germany to a pulp, we should have gone through for a second round, pounded it again, one more time for good measure, and then said: "Here, Jews, is your new state. We also have some nice property in Italy and Japan if you're interested."

Too late now. What I don't like is U.S. support of religious states. They aren't any better than monarchies or dictatorships. If you call out state policy, you get accused of antisemitism. BS. I've got no truck with Jews. But the settlements are hard to parse from our own immoral, illegal invasion and settlement of Indian Land.

The U.S. should use it's purse strings to influence what we deem to be proper behavior. But I'm sure there are strategic concerns in the Dept. of State that are over my head. It just seems we have more than Indian blood on our hands.

The apartheid colonialist State of Israel has demonstrated in the last few decades that the ineluctable lesson of history is that people more often than not refuse to learn from – not merely "forget" – their own history. To wit: Nazis + "Lebensraum" —> genocide; post-1967 Zionists + "Promised Land" —> ethnic cleansing. :eyes:

Sure. This issue does raise passions a bit, with good reason there's plenty of stuff in it.

his issue does raise passions a bit — Manuel

Is the English that are known for understatement? Are you English? That's got to rank right up there at the tippy top old chap!

Sure. This issue does raise passions a bit, with good reason there's plenty of stuff in it. — Manuel

I agree. But to be a lying armchair agitator is a waste of good brain cells.

Truth is no-one cared for the Jews out of the nation states. Even in full knowledge of the Holocaust, it wasn't a moral issue till like the 60's or 70's in terms of anyone caring much outside Jews.

It's tragic. Though it doesn't justify what they did in Palestine, but I understand it.

But by now, after much reparations from Germany, they have an advanced industrial country and a massive military. They could just stop stealing more land and killing people indiscriminately. Jeez.

Is the English that are known for understatement? Are you English? That's got to rank right up there at the tippy top old chap! — James Riley

Na. I'm Dominican/American/Spanish, but I love British humor. ;)

The apartheid colonialist State of Israel has demonstrated in the last few decades that the ineluctable lesson of history is that people more often than not refuse to learn from – not merely "forget" – their history. To wit: Nazis + "Lebensraum" —> genocide; Zionists + "Promised Land" —> ethnic cleansing. :eyes: — 180 Proof

Breathe, 180, breathe. That's so far from being a parallel that you even first of all must see it. And with that there's naught else to say.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-flare-up-teen-father-killed-in-city-of-lod-as-central-israel-comes-under-gaza-1.9796891

Yeah nothing upsetting about Jews waving the Israeli flag, dancing and cheering as a fire breaks out near the third holiest site for Muslims. — Maw

Yeah that does sound kinda shitty. Guess there's shitty people everywhere.

I don't feel any self-disgust though and I don't see why I would. If every time a Jew did something bad it caused me to feel self-disgust I'd just permanently be in a state of grossness.

The apartheid colonialist State of Israel has demonstrated in the last few decades that the ineluctable lesson of history is that people more often than not refuse to learn from – not merely "forget" – their history. To wit: Nazis + "Lebensraum" —> genocide; Zionists + "Promised Land" —> ethnic cleansing. :eyes:
— 180 Proof
Breathe, 180, breathe. That's so far from being a parallel that you even first of all must see it. And with that there's naught else to say. — tim wood

Tim, you "win" by not responding to this. Yes, Zionists + Promise land = ethnic cleansing is true in just the same way that BLM + Police reform = White genocide.

You win by not responding.

If every time a Jew did something bad it caused me to feel self-disgust I'd just permanently be in a state of grossness. — BitconnectCarlos

Don't really know what kind of glue you're sniffing in order to interpret things this way, but it must be pretty strong.

Alright then, in any case I think we're both on the same page that people do shitty things then. I'm not going to justify everything that Israeli Jews do.

However, the biggest factors would be those internal to Israel:

1. Demographic shifts with higher birth rates in ultra Orthodox and Middle Eastern Jews, who tended to favor conservative parties led to a long series conservative governments less in favor of peace.

2. The new Israeli border security measures were very effective. The dramatic reduction in successful terror attacks took pressure off the government to make peace. — Count Timothy von Icarus

In Demographic shifts one should mention the huge influx of East European Jews once the Soviet Union collapsed. This immigration to Israel was far larger than at any time earlier. Hence this huge influx of European immigration in the 1990's changed the political landscape, as those coming from the Soviet system likely didn't vote for the Labor party. And also created natural growth of the economy. Before that people could forecast that the Palestinian population would overcome the Jewish population because of higher fertility rates, but after such dramatic increases in population fertility rates were unimportant.



And the basic problem is that if Israel makes peace, then that peace should be upheld by all sides. Basically only Egypt and Jordan have had the ability to enforce the peace treaty with Israel where the government of Lebanon hasn't been able to control it's territory. Hence the withdrawal from Southern Lebanon was done by Ehud Barak's labor government, the Hezbollah swiftly occupied the region (which then lead to war only in six years). Especially in Egypt the peace with Israel has been a political hot potato issue in Egypt. Yet this isn't a problem as the neighbors of Israel aren't a military threat anymore to it.

In the end, Israeli leadership has decided that this is just the "new normal", a permanent state of low intensity conflict which the nation is able to endure.

And the state who is demonstrably - and so far successfully - committed to the annihilation of a population is Israel. — StreetlightX

As I recall, rhetoric concerned with annihilating a population, or ‘driving them into the sea’, has been heard for years from certain non-Jewish quarters within the Middle East. . I don’t recall such threats ever coming from Black South Africans toward the white population.

Never mind that the Gazans have, quite literally, been driven to the sea - beyond which they face a military blockade of platformed weapon systems - but yes, tell me more about this rhetoric which you are so concerned about. Is there a poem somewhere you might take issue with? An aggressive word, a little harsh on the sensibility? A song perhaps?

I don’t recall such threats ever coming from Black South Africans toward the white population. — Joshs

Supposedly if they did, apartheid would have been OK, yes? Because otherwise surely black South Africans under apartheid never once wished ill upon their otherwise lovely oppressors?

Militant black south Africans even attacked government institutions during apartheid, at various points! Civilians too! Can you imagine? The audacity? Can't believe we got rid of apartheid.

Yes, a population of 4.6 million under extreme travel restrictions can just up and go to another poor country of just 10 million that already struggles with providing services. That should go swimmingly...

Palestinians don't/haven't have free access to move to neighboring Arab states. When they did flee there they were denied citizenships and set up in refugee camps. Gaza is blockaded by Egypt as well as Israel.

It's a nonsense solution, which doesn't even get to the whole point of why they should have to leave. What ought to happen is that they should be allowed to live where they are without ceaseless Israeli oppression. This is made impossible by fanatical Israelis who ostensibly want to cleanse the territories for their own use, and fanatical Palestinian militants who continue to think God will grant them a seemingly impossible victory over their opponents, or, as is more common, are more interested in being rulers over the ashes than seeing a peace where they are sidelined.

So one side threatens and the other side , the one with the power, accomplishes. I lived in Israel for a year. I don’t think it’s possible for a state that identifies itself in nationalistic terms as a Jewish state can be a full fledged democracy. I think the difference between the Israeli form of democracy and the palestinian attempts at self-government is that in a self-defined Jewish state the arab citizens will always have second class status in spite of the rhetoric of equal rights under the law. In a palestinian state , Jews might have no status of citizenship .

Really? Then there's nothing more to say except to agree to disagree.

BLM + Police reform = White genocide. — BitconnectCarlos

Unless the irony is lost on me, you're playing the racist card I see. That doublespeak is mighty MAGA/QAnon of you, BC.

Gee, it's almost like the idea of an 'Isreali form of democracy' is not a form of democracy at all. It's almost as if the state itself is racist to its core, built into its foundations. Axiomatically racist, even.

What are you , some kind of utopian idealist? I don’t know that Israel’s
form of democracy is that much different than what U.S. democracy started off as. Democracy evolves , you know.

They can go to Jordan. Most Palestinian refugees in Jordan have full Jordanian citizenship.

The Israelis would have forcibly moved the Palestinians to Jordan except it reminded them of their own forced transport, so they stopped short of that solution.

Tim, you "win" by not responding to this. Yes, Zionists + Promise land = ethnic cleansing is true in just the same way that BLM + Police reform = White genocide.

You win by not responding. — BitconnectCarlos

Help me win better. I don't follow - I don't understand - your comment. My bad. can you make it clearer?