I don't like the occupation but until the Palestinians renounce violence as a political tool I think the occupation is a necessary evil. — BitconnectCarlos
Saudi Arabia is a strong nation, attempting to make progress on human rights. — frank
The point is death? For its own sake or what? — Echarmion
Yeah, that's just straight up evil in my book. — Echarmion
Who is "they" here? Are we treating all Israelis as some kind of faceless amalgam, where one part can stand in for the sins of another? — Echarmion
If morality goes out the window in difficult situation, why have it at all? — Echarmion
My problem is with people sitting in front of a computer casually accepting or dismissing death and destruction. — Echarmion
Saudi and Hamas are both Sunni and kind of fundamentalist. Iran is Shia. Iraq is both. Pakistan is both. Since Iran is theocratic, they foment sectarian violence just by existing. — frank
A couple days ago an elderly Israeli woman and her caregiver were killed when Hamas' rockets struck their homes in a residential area. Is this an example of resisting evil? — BitconnectCarlos
I can't figure why we aren't in bed with the Shia. — James Riley
Let's weep for personal tragedy to obfuscate the slow genocide of an entire people. Sorry. Not playing. I can empathise with the personal tragedy but once I step back from the particulars and look at the bigger picture the moral position is clear. That Israeli woman had been sacrificed on a zionist altar. — Benkei
How about the Israelis renounce violence as a political tool? Clearly Israel is more powerful and less at risk. Just stop responding with violence. — Echarmion
Mainly because they hate us. — frank
Was the murder of a white South African civilian during apartheid a good thing? Of course not. Apartheid was still the main thing responsible for the violence. — Manuel
Israel was safer prior to these last 15 years of incursion into Gaza and settlement expansion in the West Bank, not less safe. This is the result of such policies. — Manuel
It's not genocide and for you to use that term is absurd. If you think the Israelis are literally trying to genocide the Palestinians then there's no point in talking to you. It would put me in a position where I'd be defending Nazis. I can't go on in this conversation. Are you at all familiar with any of Hamas's genocidal language towards the Jews within their Constitution? But who cares about that - weak victims are always good, even if they're throwing gays off rooftops which happens frequently. — BitconnectCarlos
Oh thanks. And here's me thinking you have to work at it. — frank
See "How does it feel" below. — James Riley
As to your second question, yes. The Israelis are a sovereign. As sovereign is an amalgam of the faceless. You suffer for the sins of your sovereign. That's why, as an American, I don't want my sovereign backing another sovereign that is making people feel like straight up evil is the only card they have to play in response to what they feel is straight up evil. — James Riley
I you want morality to stay in the room, then get off the Palestinian's back. — James Riley
I only support violence when it's for self-defense and if Hamas is going to launch rockets from inside Gaza then Israel, like any nation state, has a right to respond. — BitconnectCarlos
It would put me in a position where I'd be defending Nazis. I can't go on in this conversation. — BitconnectCarlos
If that's all you want to talk about, I see no point. — Echarmion
I think this is a terrible moral philosophy. It turns persons into just replaceable cogs in a machine. Essentially giving whatever sovereign rules a country the right to dispose of their citizens lifes. — Echarmion
This is just ad-hominem. Do you suppose the Palestinians read this thread as a guideline as to what to do? — Echarmion
Israel, as the occupying force, owns the monopoly on colonial violence that takes place in the region. All other forms of violence occur within that sphere and cannot be decontextualized from that sphere. Given this, it's audacious to expect Palestinians to limit modes and mechanisms of emancipation by demanding that they act solely through nonviolent methods and peaceful resistance. — Maw
Oh thanks. And here's me thinking you have to work at it. — frank
Saudi Arabia is ruled by a tiny minority of very rich and powerful men. Are you telling me they're trying? — Echarmion
There's few Palestinians who would try to defend the methods of Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Unlike some people in this thread, they have long since realized that such violence fuels only one agenda, and that is Israel's. — Tzeentch
That's sidestepping the question. I didn't ask whether you think Israel has some kind of "right to retaliate". I asked why they don't just stop doing it. — Echarmion
This is telling. "I won't call it what it is, because if I do, I would have to recognize the situation for what it is, and that would be unbearable to me". — StreetlightX
Given this, it's audacious to expect Palestinians to limit modes and mechanisms of emancipation by demanding that they act solely through nonviolent methods and peaceful resistance. Violent resistance has a historically successful track record of securing freedom and self-determination, and to demand that the oppressed struggle for emancipation through limited, pre-approved means presents itself as an implicit justification for the state of oppression. — Maw
So, should the U.S. pull the pack our bags (of money) and go home? I'm hip. — James Riley
They aren't thousands of miles away second-guessing their own actions, like an armchair quarterback who would have them concede because, well, they are the underdog. — James Riley
So one thing you need to get straight is that lauding democracy is a neoliberal ploy. When you can't buy off religious leaders, you want democracy so you can subvert it and raid. They know that. — frank
Are you honestly asking me why Israel doesn't just let Hamas fire rockets into Israel and not respond? — BitconnectCarlos
I don't know, maybe this is some kind of 500 IQ move that'll get them to stop and reduce violence in the long run but I honestly have no idea. If you're saying it's the best strategic move maybe I could entertain that purely on strategic grounds, not moral grounds though. — BitconnectCarlos
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