Blaming Israel for a Palestinian having 14 children whilst living in a cave has got nothing to do with eugenics. — Andrew4Handel

OK fascist.

It is land dispute — Andrew4Handel

A 'dispute' in which one power is subjecting an entire population to destitution so as to steal their land and destroy their means of living at all points.

You apparently think all the problems in the region are only caused by the Jews. — Andrew4Handel

No, I think the problems of Palestinians being genocided are being caused by the Israeli state which is doing the genocide.

More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan

I wonder what counts as a "plan" here. Do they mean formal documentation like the Nazis at the Wannsee conference? In what sense do the Israelis have this plan?

OK fascist — StreetlightX

I am an antinatalist and I condemn anyone for having children.

I think you are harming the Palestinian cause if you are going to claim having large families during this conflict does not add to the suffering.

What is your actual argument apart from the fascist ad hominem? (I grew up in a family of six. neither of my parents should have had children based on their mental state and they were both very religious) I know what is like for parents to cause unnecessary suffering and have unnecessary children because of their crazy beliefs.

You apparently cannot differentiate between a land dispute and a genocide. I can't help you there. I have outlined my position in detail. Even if you think all of the area belongs to the Arabs it doesn't mean they should have 14 children each. If you cannot see how they are exacerbating the conflict and suffering then I can't help You there either.

A 'dispute' in which one power is subjecting an entire population to destitution — StreetlightX

Thank you for continuing lying. There are nearly two million Arabs living in Israeli borders. How many Jews live in Palestinian territory? Which is more diverse, Israel or the Palestinian territories?. Who is this "entire population". Your position is an unexpected fantastical exaggeration and caricature. I can only think of ONE motive for it because it is out of proportion to what is happening.

Your problem may be that you think all the land belongs to the Arab/Palestinians and see any Jewish presence thereas an affront.

WHO ?actually gets to decides who owns land? It is certainly not you nor is it the UN. (see previous posts for my critique of land ownership)

I wonder what counts as a "plan" here. Do they mean formal documentation? In what sense do the Israelis have this plan? — BitconnectCarlos

I have said to him and others that both sides on the extremes can be claimed to be intent on genocide. Any Arab or Jew who wants to completely expel or kill the other is genocidal. Unfortunately that is the Stated Aim on the Hamas charter.

A genocide may happen but that will be everyone's fault. Because of the rhetoric and lack of reasoned debate.

He's just going to keep at it in a refusal to admit that the Anarchist movement is a cult and in attempt to save the political, cultural, and intellectual legacy of Johann Georg Faust from the writings of Christopher Marlowe. It is not just a land dispute, though.

It is not just a land dispute, though. — thewonder

What else is it?

I am only claiming the alleged genocidal acts are disputes over land ownership.

There's all kinds of complex circumstances that play into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. People say that it's just about land, religion, Western exceptionalism, Islamic extremism, Jews, Arabs, Jerusalem, or whatever else, and you can look at it in all of those ways, but it was created out of a lot of circumstances and both has and does not have the complex history that it is occasionally said to.

"In the 1870s, Tolstoy experienced a profound moral crisis, followed by what he regarded as an equally profound spiritual awakening, as outlined in his non-fiction work A Confession (1882). His literal interpretation of the ethical teachings of Jesus, centering on the Sermon on the Mount, caused him to become a fervent Christian anarchist and pacifist.[3] His ideas on nonviolent resistance, expressed in such works as The Kingdom of God Is Within You (1894), had a profound impact on such pivotal 20th-century figures as Mahatma Gandhi[9] and Martin Luther King Jr.[10] He also became a dedicated advocate of Georgism, the economic philosophy of Henry George, which he incorporated into his writing, particularly Resurrection (1899)."

- Wikipedia

"Kropotkin was a proponent of a decentralised communist society free from central government and based on voluntary associations of self-governing communities and worker-run enterprises. He wrote many books, pamphlets and articles, the most prominent being The Conquest of Bread and Fields, Factories and Workshops, but also Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution, his principal scientific offering. He contributed the article on anarchism to the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition[14] and left unfinished a work on anarchist ethical philosophy."

- Wikipedia

As per the unfortunately appropriative and essentializing code of the informal Anarchist and libertarian Left intelligence operation, we are the Palestinians in the West Bank. I could just as soon do without the code, though.

What I am, however, trying to explain to @StreetlightX about the website is that there now is no longer a reason for me to go on as such. While I do have kind of a habit of entrying various social organizations, reorganizing them in such a manner that either improves their social ecology or renders it not a problem for me, which I learned from A Thousand Plateaus, and then just kind of taking off, seeing that I've already successfully done that, there's no reason to be concerned about my continuing to do so.

There's all kinds of complex circumstances that play into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. People say that it's just about land, religion, Western exceptionalism, Islamic extremism, Jews, Arabs, Jerusalem, or whatever else, and you can look at it in all of those ways, but it was created out of a lot of circumstances and both has and does not have the complex history that it is occasionally said to. — thewonder

But the main issue seems to be who "owns" or "deserves" the land.

I think humans are overpopulating and slicing up the world into ever slimmer pieces without a sense of personal or collective responsibility.

I don't consider I own anything and am just lucky to have things and I believe in stewardship where you preserve things in a good condition for everyone to enjoy. Aggressive national land rights and resource right claims are just over exploitation.

But As I have said I think this conflict is a microcosm or microscope on the problem of resolving land disputes. It is a personal preference whether you think one side has more rights than the others.

I live in an area with a lot of homeless people. Life isn't fair.

Perhaps in Israel or Palestine, but we Libertarian Communists, Anarcho-Communists, Anarcho-Pacifists, and Environmentalist Anarchists, and "lifestyle anarchists", though we weren't all Pacifists, and I, at least, even liked Communization, were just simply so inclined to believe that the word should travel well, which we took mean peacefully. It was a set of fairly recently established political factions within the Anarchist movement and libertarian Left who took issue with this and saw to it that we were isolated from the movement. Such praxis belongs only to me now, but it was generally thought to be agreeable among more or less the entire community, particularly that which does have a historical lineage, and only became a point of contention when the barbarism began at home.

It's not really a preference in Israel or Palestine, though. For all intensive purposes, the Palestinians were the indigenous population there. There is much to say of the motivation for the creation of Israel, but you can't really cite a time before the common era so as to make the claim that this or that population was somehow already there.

There is much to say of the motivation for the creation of Israel, but you can't really cite a time before the common era so as to make the claim that this or that population was somehow already there. — thewonder

I have stated repeatedly here that I think property is illegitimate and that we are subject to survival of the fittest. I am taking issue with Israel being a pariah state whose existence is less legitimate than anywhere else.

If you don't believe in the legitimacy of ownerships, countries, law and human rights (for good reason) then you see any claim as being equally invalid and no one with a reason for moral superiority.

I am not saying this is you but why do most hippies live in liberal democracies where they don't face existential threats. I am aware my "freedoms" are being defended by the capitalist, exploitative, militarized structure I live in and not by esoteric ideologies.

I am in agreement with that Israel is just kind of like any other Western nation. I have a lot to say about it, but also already have in this thread.

There aren't too many good reasons not to believe in human rights, though. The only thing that you can say about them is that they're ineffective.

What we call "barbarism", and, because of its colonial connotations, we don't often do so, are any number of Machiavellian, in the pejorative sense of the term, political schemes that people, in every set and subset of the political spectrum, out of a kind of cynical pathology concerning human nature or history, occasionally attempt to set into motion. For the Central Intelligence Agency, it was justified by Ethical Egoism and Game Theory. It's difficult to say what convinces anyone else of such things. They become convinced nonetheless.

The "barbarism" is a raison d'être for an entendre of "Marxism-Stirnerism". Max Stirner, himself, seemed like kind of an alright guy, as well as the obvious implication that the Communists should have a greater preference for individual liberty, but they were suggesting that they should just get rid of a certain set of Stirnerites. It's why I've previously tried to exclusively define Anarchism as "libertarian socialism". People in the libertarian Left and Anarchist movement, particularly Anarchists, exploit the philosophy of Egoism so as to justify ruthless acts that are only within their own self-interest. It's how Stirner was interpreted by Fascists, which is how it's just crypto-Fascism, even if they aren't even collaborating with Neo-Fascists. The problem with levelling the charge of crypto-Fascism, however, is that it is often done unfairly. Nihilists, Anti-Civilization theorists, Egoists, and Post-Left Anarchists are all blanketly characterized as crypto-Fascists. Those philosophies are where they do tend to congregate, but they can actually be found within nearly every faction of the Anarchist movement.

There aren't too many good reasons not to believe in human rights, — thewonder

Where would they come from?

We are part of nature and nature allows us to suffer and die it doesn't enforce anything moral. No animal has rights and billions die everyday.

I have stated before that I am an antinatalist. The biggest problem is creating a person (which is a death sentence) leading to them inevitably suffering. We have a right not to be forced into existence.

I have mentioned elsewhere that my older brother died after a debilitating 25 year illness. Humans rights did not prevent years of disability and suffering, Human rights do not sublimate whatever nature has in hold for you

The problem with this conflict as I said previously is the reification of human fictions and bogus claims of moral superiority and ownership validity.

Nope. Posted without even reading your reply. Now that I have, however, I see that that previous reply (like all the rest of your posts on this topic, BC), and especially your reply to my last post, proves my point – your apologies for Bibi wagging the dog with escalating war crimes are both stupid & deceitful.

Things that need validating or explaining here are.

The validity of Nationhood status
The validity of classing something a war crime

The validity of any moral system
The axioms on which one is condemning their enemy
The denial of ones own prejudices
The use of inflammatory language like "War crimes" and "Genocide"
Your own personal authority behind the ethical statements you make.
Your actual political spectrum and biases.

Why anyone should take YOU seriously

Why you expend energy on one particular conflict and not the vast majority of conflicts and suffering in the world.

What role your position has in fostering a peace if that is what people (allegedly) want.

Why the death of a small minority of children out of countless child deaths every day should feature in an "argument" on a philosophy forum.

Why you don't believe in the theory of the survival of the fittest.....

This has nothing to do with you, but I should like to point out that what I mean by "crypto-Fascism" is that a person is cryptically engaging within a form of Fascist praxis. It is just what it would be defined as. It means that a person is behaving like a Fascist under the guise of their doing something else. Lot's of people use this term, and not well. I am using to literally refer to what it denotes.

Anyways, I posit that natural rights exist because they are always demanded in every given situation. A person necessarily demands to be free from coercion. Generally, however, human rights are good and you should just agree to that because of that they would do good in the world were they to be substantiated. God may not have granted me my freedom of speech, but I have used it better than any other American citizen. I don't need to have a philosophical argument about the First Amendment to know that I agree with it.

My claims have nothing to do with sanctimony, which, as, as a Pacifist, I could use to my advantage, but generally prefer not to. I ascribe to a kind of situational ethics that I assume to more or less just kind of be in effect. I think that ethics stem from the other. Because there are other people in the world, the situation for ethics arises.

I am sorry for your brother, but don't think that you should use such an anecdote to promote the nihilistic cynicism that you have adopted.

I don't think that you are correct in your assessment of the conflict. It has something to do with collective delusions and forms of pride, but there is much to said of both of those things and you reduce it all too much.

I have plenty of things to explain to plenty of people, but you just aren't one of them.

You have absolutely zero respect or care for material reality. The truth on the ground. It's honestly amazing.

The validity of any moral system — Andrew4Handel

I am an antinatalist. — Andrew4Handel

Huh.

I condemn anyone for having children. — Andrew4Handel

The axioms on which one is condemning their enemy — Andrew4Handel

Hmm.

No animal has rights and billions die everyday. — Andrew4Handel

We have a right not to be forced into existence. — Andrew4Handel

Are you seriously not noticing any of this? That’s.... impressive. Especially the last one, the two sentences are a paragraph apart!

We have a right not to be forced into existence.
— Andrew4Handel

Are you seriously not noticing any of this? That’s.... impressive. — khaled

That is not a contradiction.

No one has rights and that includes parents. They don't have the right to have children I misphrased by saying "we have a right"

If their are rights the primary one is not to exist because some other selfish narc wants children.

I thought you were an antinatalist? Are you going to support the right of Arabs/Palestinians to have 14 children whilst living in a cave?

The lack of rights favours no one. Moral nihilism favours no one. No one can defend their position using nature. Reality is anarchist and your position may survive or it may not.

The axioms on which one is condemning their enemy — Andrew4Handel

I condemn everyone for having children not Just the Palestinians and Jews. You can ignore it all you like But Palestinian Arabs are having large families for just one reason. Having children is indefensible and harmful but having them to try and win a land dispute is delusional and sadistic.

I have been evicted from a property because the landlord was a crook but I didn't fire 1,500 rockets at him. I suffered abuse my entire childhood and have not used that to justify killing anyone.

Feel free to tell me who they are. :smile:

Reality is anarchist and your position may survive or it may not. — Andrew4Handel

Only as it has come to be commonly understood. Anarchists today have mistaken Anarchism for generalized chaos. They've let historians in the United Kingdom make it out to be akin to the civil war between England and Normandy that occurred between 1135 and 1153. Anarchism is actually a political philosophy. The entire movement has become wholly untenable because of that people think things like you think about it, though.

Here are some facts: Israel has had no troops or settlements in Gaza since 2005. It's entirely self-governed except for the borders, with virtually all internal affairs dictated by Hamas. — BitconnectCarlos

This is a silly thing to say or you don't realise what this factually means. Palestinians do not control access to clean water, electricity or gas, can't get medicine, don't get enough stuff to build (wood, concrete and steel), import of foodstuffs are regulated causing inflated prices and keeping Palestinians poor, they can't travel to and from Gaza, even through the corridor to the West Bank without going through a checkpoint, they can be administratively detained for 6 months which can be indefinitely extended without being charged with anything. And I don't recall with certainty whether this concerned Gaza, but Israel created a landfill in the most arable region destroying good land and poisoning the aquifer underneath it, increasing Palestinian dependence on Israeli water. And that's just the stuff I remember at 6 in the morning. This isn't self governance, it's an atrocity.

A person necessarily demands to be free from coercion — thewonder

I will read the rest of your post later.#

However.

I grew up in a religious cult and was abused my entire childhood without freedom. Nature does not provide and respect freedom a lot if not of most young animals die in infancy. Most fertilisations end in miscarriage.

I just was not as privileged as you to demand freedom as a child hence I was imprisoned in a cult and attempted suicide as a teenager. It is too late to grant me rights now. No One cares. They are trapped in their own ideological delusions. People seem to think everyone else is the same as them and does not appreciate huge ideological and personal gulfs.

Anyone supporting Islam to me is a child abuser. I grew up in a Christian cult but they are endorsing the same kind of helplessness and abuse. And apparently you can't criticize Arabic/Palestinian/Muslim child abusers misogynists and homophobes because the real problem is the Jews.

You seem kind of distressed. What I'm saying is that you necessarily don't want to be in a cult. I'm not saying that people aren't conscripted into cults. You don't choose to be in a cult. You can only want out of a cult. You may not realize that you do, but, within the full breath of your reason, you would.

In any given political scenario, given the opportunity not to look down the barrel of a gun, a person will choose to do so. That's what I'm saying. People necessarily demand to be free from coercion. That is how the natural right of the freedom from coercion exists. It's not that people aren't held a gunpoint. It's that, being capable of speaking freely, they will always say that the other party has no right to do so. That's only so to the point, but I feel like will clarify this for you.

Freedom is good, man. Believe in what's good, man.

Freedom is good, man. — thewonder

The human body is a mortal prison.

I can't see the freedom in that? Any freedom I get will either be in an afterlife or in finding personal integrity in this life.

Part of my personal integrity is defending Israel and the Jews with my last dying breath.

You seem kind of distressed. — thewonder

Like everyone else on the thread who seems to be in a state of hysteria and indignation. Making genocide allegations and what not.

keeping Palestinians poor, — Benkei

They have had billions in Aid. Where did the stockpile of 30,000 rockets come from? Nearly 2 million Palestinian Arabs live in Israel.

Here is a list of Palestinian Arab members of The Knesset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset