What are you trying to prove or establish? — tim wood

Nothing. I posted a comment expressing my personal view after which I was attacked for doing so as seems to be standard procedure here.

Nothing. I posted a comment expressing my personal view after which I was attacked for doing so as seems to be standard procedure here. — Apollodorus

I believe that's a big element in atheism. Atheists are afraid of the thought of there being anything higher than themselves hence they hope there isn't. — Apollodorus

Apparently you do not understand the difference between statements about a class and about an individual. Some people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. There is, then a double fault (at least) in misusing class statements. First, it confuses the individual with the class. Second, it attributes to the other members of the class qualities/quantities/whatever that they do not have. As such if allowed it becomes possible to prove just about anything about anybody. A little care in your language, then, will smooth your travels on TPF, and likely everywhere else.

A little care in your language, then, will smooth your travels on TPF, and likely everywhere else. — tim wood

I think that's wishful thinking. In my experience, if people want to attack you because you've expressed a view that is incompatible with their own ideology or mode of thinking they'll attack you no matter what.

As I said, I saw this as an informal exchange of views not as a formal discussion or debate. I wouldn't have had the time for that anyway.

I could have put my view in more precise or more technical language but I'm not particularly fond of jargon and I didn't feel that to be necessary. I still think that the OP term "hope" may be taken to imply fear in some form or other. Normally, when we hope something it means we fear that the opposite might happen. When we really like something we have, we consciously or subconsciously fear that we might lose it, etc. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter though. I don't think it's wise for people to hold a grudge against one another just for holding different views. That isn't what a philosophy forum, or any forum, should be about.

I'm on about language. I can only point out to you that with your usages you yourself dig the holes you fall into. It's not about views; it's about words and what they mean. Nor is it about jargon or technical language, but about understanding the language, the words, that you're using. And on a site like this, you should expect to be challenged for usage. The main trouble and shame is that it's ultimately a waste of everyone's time and effort.

Actually, that's an interesting statement. I tend to believe that fear can work in both directions. Some people believe in God as a result of fear while others may deny God's existence out of fear that he might actually exist. — Apollodorus

Maybe some such disbelievers can be found? An odd kind of wishful thinking?
Doesn't seem all that likely, though, or at least uncommon.
Plenty reasons to disregard the Vedic Shiva, the Avestan Ahura Mazda, the Bhagavad Gitan Vishnu, the Biblical Yahweh, the Quranic Allah, Eru/Ilúvatar of The Silmarillion, ...

Maybe some such disbelievers can be found? An odd kind of wishful thinking?
Doesn't seem all that likely, though, or at least uncommon. — jorndoe

:100: Agreed.

While an atheist may hope he's not wrong out of fear of finding a god on the other side, he doesn't really then go the extra step of hoping god doesn't exist just because he doesn't want a god for some other fearful reason (the OP, as I understood it). To not want god for fear of what might happen if you are wrong, is much different than not wanting god simply because you don't want god. What, in the latter case, would you possibly be afraid of?

Most atheists I know wish there was a god, thinking he'd come down here and spank the shit out of all his dumb-ass followers who violate his tenants on a daily basis.

it's ultimately a waste of everyone's time and effort. — tim wood

That's what it is anyway. I rarely see discussions here leading to anything, to be quite honest. But I may be wrong.

Maybe some such disbelievers can be found? An odd kind of wishful thinking?
Doesn't seem all that likely, though, or at least uncommon. — jorndoe

You'll be surprised at the amount of subconscious baggage some people carry around with them without ever realizing.

Most atheists I know wish there was a god, thinking he'd come down here and spank the shit out of all his dumb-ass followers who violate his tenants on a daily basis. — James Riley

Sure. And let's not forget all those atheist saints like Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and their millions of followers.

Sure. And let's not forget all those atheist saints like Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and their millions of followers. — Apollodorus

You're just proving my point. Atheists are more likely to wish they were wrong than to hope they are right.

Atheists are more likely to wish they were wrong than to hope they are right. — James Riley

I suspect most atheists just don't know. They certainly can't prove that there is no God and I doubt many of them have even tried. Most people are really lazy when it comes to these matters.

:100: :up:

I suspect most atheists just don't know. — Apollodorus

I thought that was an agnostic?

They certainly can't prove that there is no God . . — Apollodorus

They are the same as theist in that regard, for they can't prove there is a god.

I doubt many of them have even tried. — Apollodorus

Do you have any evidence to support your doubt? Most atheists I know tried damn hard but logic and reason just wouldn't let them do it. Hell, many of them were raised deep in it, and were believers.

Most people are really lazy when it comes to these matters. — Apollodorus

Indeed. Thinking can be hard. It's a lot easier to let go and let god.

I thought that was an agnostic? — James Riley

No. The agnostic is an atheist who admits that he doesn't know.

Most atheists I know tried damn hard but logic and reason just wouldn't let them do it. Hell, many of them were raised deep in it, and were believers. — James Riley

I don't think Marx ever thought about it. Most likely he never believed. If you start from the unexamined premise that religion is "the opium of the people", then you don't think about it. It is like a religious belief that you accept on faith. In my experience, honest and thoughtful atheists tend to admit that, ultimately, they don't know.

No. The agnostic is an atheist who admits that he doesn't know. — Apollodorus

You just said:

I suspect most atheists just don't know. — Apollodorus

Doh!

I don't think Marx ever thought about it. Most likely he never believed. If you start from the unexamined premise that religion is "the opium of the people", then you don't think about it. It is like a religious belief that you accept on faith. — Apollodorus

I'm beginning to see where Tim Wood is coming from. If we are to tie the specific to the general, then you end up conflating the disparate. Please don't be so fundamentally stupid as to run to Marx when discussing atheism generally. That's like me running to Hitler when discussing Christianity generally.

In my experience, honest and thoughtful atheists tend to admit that, ultimately, they don't know. — Apollodorus

In my experience, most theists are not honest or thoughtful.

I'm beginning to see where Tim Wood is coming from. If we are to tie the specific to the general, then you end up conflating the disparate. Please don't be so fundamentally stupid as to run to Marx when discussing atheism generally. That's like me running to Hitler when discussing Christianity generally. — James Riley

And I'm beginning to see that you're getting angry for your own inability to convince anyone, perhaps not even yourself.

I simply gave Marx as a well-known example of unthinking atheist.

Hitler and Christianity is a totally different story. If you were to run to Hitler in a discussion on religion that would be "fundamentally stupid" indeed.

And yes, most atheists are agnostics who refuse to admit that they don't know.

And I'm beginning to see that you're getting angry for your own inability to convince anyone, perhaps not even yourself. — Apollodorus

I'm not angry at all. I've convinced lots of honest, thoughtful people.

I simply gave Marx as a well-known example of unthinking atheist. — Apollodorus

I don't believe you. I think you gave Marx because he's your boogey man and easy to paint. It's lazy. And to say he's "unthinking" demonstrates your dishonesty; either that or your ignorance. I'm no fan of Marx, but I'd never say he was unthinking. That would make me stupid.

Hitler and Christianity is a totally different story. — Apollodorus

An analogy, by definition, is not the thing itself. It is no argument to simply point that out. Rather, it is incumbent upon those who wish to defeat it to draw a distinction with a relevant difference. To do that, you would have to understand the purpose for which it was offered. Apparently it flew right over your dualistic mind.

And yes, most atheists are agnostics who refuse to admit that they don't know. — Apollodorus

Yeah, and most theists don't think or admit they don't know. I'd rather the honesty of those who aren't sure. And besides, this thread isn't about "most atheists" who you suspect (without evidence) are agnostics; it's about the atheists that aren't agonistic. See OP.

I've got absolutely nothing against you. I just happen to disagree with your statements. I'm sure even you would disagree if you cared to look at what you are saying:

I don't believe you. I think you gave Marx because he's your boogey man and easy to paint. It's lazy. And to say he's "unthinking" demonstrates your dishonesty; either that or your ignorance. I'm no fan of Marx, but I'd never say he was unthinking. That would make me stupid. — James Riley

I never said "Marx was unthinking". I said "unthinking atheist", i.e. a person who was an atheist from the start, not as a result of thinking about it. That was precisely why I chose him as an example. You are confusing yourself. Or maybe you're just a bit tired.

TL;DR: upon close inspection of the biblical god, it quickly becomes apparent it was fashioned after Man's lesser-desirable traits, making the worship thereof foolish at best.

I was raised to be a christian, dragged to more than a few churches. Eventually, as a teenager, I got bored enough to actually read the bible, not selectively, but cover to cover. It was interesting, so much so that I was compelled to concurrently read multiple versions/iterations of the bible, so as to compare and contrast the language used, with the hope of gleaning a more accurate understanding.

Being full of teenage hormones and a strong natural sense of justice/fairness, I was more than taken aback by the plethora of blatant contradictions I found in the bible, not to mention the horrific behavior of the main and ancillary characters. I knew there were some in there (contradictions) , I'd encountered a few previously, but in my quest to better comprehend the literary work and thus the derivative ideologies, I had gone about it with as open and objective a mind as I could manage. Suffice it to say that the end result was my complete and total atheism, at least in regard to the Abrahamic/biblical "god".

It wasn't merely the contradictions, the imperfect nature of what should've been the perfect work of a perfect entity, that drove me so far from belief, but more so the childish and disgusting, outright repulsive personality of this god thing.

Do I hope that your terrible magic sky daddy doesn't exist? Obviously, but not actively or often, I so very rarely to never think about it. If you've actually read the bible, in its entirety, in as short a period of time as you can manage, you would be insane to wish for such an entity to have any basis in reality, unless of course, you were some sort of immoral masochistic sociopath.

I never said "Marx was unthinking". I said "unthinking atheist", i.e. a person who was an atheist from the start, not as a result of thinking about it. — Apollodorus

You parse a hair too thin. He was born Jewish, the family changed to Christianity, he was baptized, and grew up in a secular environment of philosophy which, I'm pretty sure, did not make him an unthinking atheist. I'd say the burden would be upon you to show that he was. But you've got nothing.

That was precisely why I chose him as an example. — Apollodorus

Then you chose poorly. I think you chose Marx, as I said, because he is your go-to when trying to saddle atheists with all kinds of other baggage irrelevant to the merits of the discussion. It's a distraction when you are getting your ass handed to you in argument.

You are confusing yourself. Or maybe you're just a bit tired. — Apollodorus

And there's the loss. :smile:

Most atheists want God not to exist as to be able to tell to those who believe "I told you! I was right!". Maybe they are secretly envy of people who believe. Cause those (even if they are wrong. And imo they are) at least they have answered to their existential questions. Atheists are condemned to "suffer" from the lust of knowledge

Do I hope that your terrible magic sky daddy doesn't exist? Obviously, but not actively or often, I so very rarely to never think about it. If you've actually read the bible, in its entirety, in as short a period of time as you can manage, you would be insane to wish for such an entity to have any basis in reality, unless of course, you were some sort of immoral masochistic sociopath. — Seditious

Well, at least you seem honest enough to admit that hope is an element of atheism.

However, I would point out that the conception of God in the Christian Gospels is not the same as that of God in the Hebrew Bible.

.

he was baptized, and grew up in a secular environment of philosophy which, I'm pretty sure, did not make him an unthinking atheist. I'd say the burden would be upon you to show that he was. But you've got nothing. — James Riley

It's the opinion of historians and scholars. But if you think you know better, that's OK with me.

It's the opinion of historians and scholars. — Apollodorus

Oh, okay. "Historians and scholars" say Marx arrived at atheism without thought. Gotcha. I would never pretend to question historians and scholars.

As I said, take a better look at your own statements:

He was born Jewish, the family changed to Christianity, he was baptized, and grew up in a secular environment of philosophy which, I'm pretty sure, did not make him an unthinking atheist. — James Riley

No logic there at all. You're constructing a narrative there from unrelated bits of information.

Young Germans at the time were often atheists because that was the new fashion in that period, not because they had analyzed religion and found it to be unscientific or whatever. The same happens even today. Atheists aren't any more intelligent or thoughtful than theists.

No logic there at all. You're constructing a narrative there from unrelated bits of information.

Young Germans at the time were often atheists because that was the new fashion in that period, not because they had analyzed religion and found it to be unscientific or whatever. — Apollodorus

Tim Wood tried to teach you about extrapolating from the specific to the general and back again. I mentioned it, but I think that, and logic in general, are over your head. You go from atheism to Marx, from Marx back to young Germans at the time, blah blah blah. You have absolutely know evidence that Marx came to his atheism in an unthinking manner. You made some vague reference to "historians and scholars" but that dog won't hunt. I gave you my anecdotal experience of atheists, and how not a one came to it in an unthinking manner. Most were Christians at one time. See Seditious, above. I pointed out how Marx was not raised in a vacuum, but was exposed to much theology. Most people (you might be an exception) think about their decisions. So foreign that may be to you, that you can't fathom it. After all, you are a Christian, aren't you? Did you come to a sky being through faith? I get that. But you certainly didn't get there through logical thought.

But let me tell you and any reader what is going on here: Apollodorus, you are like the Christian who says that anyone who doesn't act in accord with Christian values isn't really a Christian. You know, like the Vatican, circa 13th Century, et seq. Anyone who is an atheist is really an agnostic. Anyone who is an atheist is unthinkingly so. Anyone who doesn't see it your way is illogical or constructing a narrative from unrelated bits of information. But it's not true, Apollodorus. I didn't create a narrative. I just cited some Wiki crap about Marx's early years, showing you that he wasn't in some secular, unthinking vacuum.

You've been spanked. You keep digging. And digging. You are in over your head. Let it go. If you don't, I will have to add you to my short but growing list of people on here who have lost all credibility and who no longer warrant my attention.

didn't create a narrative. I just cited some Wiki crap about Marx's early years, showing you that he wasn't in some secular, unthinking vacuum — James Riley

You cited it from Wikipedia and in so doing you made it your narrative. What's the point in saying "he was born Jewish"? His father had already converted to Christianity before he was born. So, what?

You have no idea what my religion is. You're making it all up. And why are you defending Marx? You must be either some sort of neo-Marxist or something along those lines.

And anyway, @Seditious has already admitted that he is an atheist who hopes that God doesn't exist. So, that already answers the question. There is nothing more to be said unless you want to start a new thread.

You cited it from Wikipedia and in so doing you made it your narrative. What's the point in saying "he was born Jewish"? His father had already converted to Christianity before he was born. So, what? — Apollodorus

So what? So, if a person is born and raised a theist and then switches, it is more likely than not that the change was thinking, not unthinking. You say Marx was an unthinking atheist, but you've got exactly squat to show for it.

You have no idea what my religion is. You're making it all up. — Apollodorus

I didn't make up anything. I asked: "you are a Christian, aren't you?

And why are you defending Marx? You must be either some sort of neo-Marxist or something along those lines. — Apollodorus

Now you make my point about why you brought up Marx. It had nothing to do with him being an atheist who served to make your argument. It was so you could try to cast shade on my argument about atheism with your "commie bad" BS. You are so transparent and predictable.

And anyway, Seditious has already admitted that he is an atheist who hopes that God doesn't exist. So, that already answers the question. — Apollodorus

Seditious admitted no such thing. He said he doesn't "want your terrible magic sky daddy" to exist, and the end result of his extensive thought was his complete and total atheism, at least in regard to the Abrahamic/biblical "god". This was after expressing concerns about a biblical demonstration of blatant contradictions, horrific behavior, and the childish and disgusting, outright repulsive personality of this god thing. You'd have to be some sort of immoral masochistic sociopath to want such a "god".

So again, Apollodorus, you stand corrected. Only now you have started misstating what I and other's have said. You can disagree all day long, but when you start with those tactics, and the "commie bad" shit, you have lost your credibility. You are now beneath me and no longer warrant my time. Buh bye.

:lol:

That was pretty entertaining.

One shouldn't generalize about atheists, just as one shouldn't generalize about theists. It's an astonishingly broad category of people.

There are crusty, dogmatic atheists, refective, philosophical atheists and simple, untheorized atheists. Many atheists don't employ any real arguments, they were simply brought up secular and have never thought God was a useful option. Others earned their atheism after careful investigation and hard thinking.

What I do know is there are some people who resent atheism (it upsets them) and it fits into a broader culture war against secularism. Such people are often on the look out for ideas to slander an atheist's motivations or belief system.

One such slander is that atheists are all secret believers. Another is that they are Communists (very popular in the 1950's). Another is that they are afraid of God and therefore repressed theists, living in denial. Yet another is that they are egomaniacs who don't have room in their lives for someone more powerful than them. That's my favorite one.

And on it goes. I have heard most of these lazy ad hominems many times and they are generally provided when people want to avoid engaging with ideas.