That’s obviously true, but it’s unfair to blame McDonald’s for the obesity epidemic. We’re all influenced to greater or lesser degrees, but are expected to use good judgement when we choose to act. There’s an assumption of free will that we as a society endorse in most cases, so I don’t understand why in other cases we make exceptions. — Pinprick
Was Manson so extraordinary that others were unable to resist his persuasions? — Pinprick
It’s concerning to think that our legal system seems to have no issue equating speech and actions. — Pinprick
More than one person can bear the blame for a result, it isn't split between actors. — Echarmion
It's weird to claim that responsibility for the effects of your actions is an "exception to free will". — Echarmion
I don't see why "inability to resist" should be the criterion. If I offer 5 million for someone's death, would-be assassins aren't "unable to resist" this offer, but it'd be ludicrous to argue I had nothing to do with the eventual death of the person. — Echarmion
Speech literally is an action. — Echarmion
My assumption, and this will probably come across as a gross generalization, is that people who are “gullible” enough to consider Manson a god are probably mentally ill. And Manson can’t be held responsible for someone’s mental illness. — Pinprick
This also brings up the other issue of interpretation — Pinprick
I suppose the chances of getting the wrong idea is proportional to the rhetoric in a speech/text which makes the speaker/writer liable to some degree for the effects of faer words. — TheMadFool
I indeed am weary of the accuracy of psychological testing, particularly IQ tests, but I won’t try to make the argument that their specific tests were inaccurate. However, given that these accuracy debates are still occurring, and that these tests were conducted roughly 40 years ago it’s likely that they weren’t as accurate as they may be today. So I think having some suspicion is warranted, but nonetheless I’m sure this testing was the best we could do at the time. At the very least I think it would be safe to say they were prone to delusional thinking, which could have had something to do with all the LSD they were taking, among other things. — Pinprick
I don’t think it can be that cut and dry. Culture has a lot to do with it too. Mark Twain used a racial slur quite often in his writings. Does that mean he was racist? That’s a rhetorical question, but it would be easy to see how a reader may come to the conclusion that he was. Especially if they’re not informed about the author or when the book was written. But it’s ridiculous to expect Mark Twain to have the foresight to know how the word “nigger” would be interpreted 100 years after the fact. — Pinprick
I’m claiming the opposite. Typically free will is assumed, but when Manson is blamed for a murder someone else committed, it implies that person did not have free will, or at least was not capable of exercising it. So in this case we make an exception, and blame Manson instead of the person who’s actions actually resulted in death. — Pinprick
I’m separating the two incidents. You would bear blame for hiring an assassin, but the assassin would be to blame for the actual murder. So, I’m fine with blaming Manson for whatever it is he actually did (which basically amounts to preaching as far as I understand it), but he isn’t a murderer. — Pinprick
Yeah, that’s true, but speech alone isn’t capable of forcing someone to do something, effectively eliminating their free will. — Pinprick
It’s the difference between telling you to raise your hand, and forcibly grabbing your hand and raising it. — Pinprick
Excuses and excuses and excuses – excuses just to avoid one single insight that “I am responsible for myself. Nobody else is responsible for me; it is absolutely and utterly my responsibility. Whatsoever I am, I am my own creation.” — Anand-Haqq
But that doesn't mean me putting the gun to your head is somehow irrelevant to the question of responsibility / blame for the result. — Echarmion
Aside from the name, what's the difference? — Echarmion
But someone else's free will isn't a barrier that somehow shields one from consequences. — Echarmion
Yeah but what is that difference? How does it matter from a moral standpoint? — Echarmion
Right. That’s why putting a gun to someone’s head is illegal/blameworthy. — Pinprick
Consider the tendency some have of blaming the victim. Is a woman to blame, in any way, for the actions of the rapist? Feel free to imagine whatever scenario you like; she was coming on to him, was dressed provocatively, etc.
If we’re going to blame someone for someone else’s actions, then we have to contend with examples like this one. If she’s not to blame, why not? I have a feeling whatever argument you use to justify not blaming her can also be used to justify not blaming Manson for murder. — Pinprick
And that, according to you, is unrelated to the actual intent and result? I.e. it's always the same blame, regardless of your reasons and the result? — Echarmion
Well one obvious reason here is that it's the victim we're talking about. — Echarmion
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