@Fooloso4 OK. Follow this closely, if you feel eternity then you feel you are forever. You feel you are not your material body. Thus death is not the materialist "nothingness".

What exactly do you mean by "the philosophical reasoning associated with a God's existence"? — tim wood

In our context, it means that for the Atheist, if he/she reasons that God does not exist (philosophical discourse) then he/she puts themselves in a precarious position of defending their belief system (or value system). In other words, it puts them in an untenable position of authority.

From what I've seen on this site, that is one of many reasons why they get so agitated/emotional. Simply put, they troll threads; huff and puff and blow smoke about religious dogma with little substance. Then they get mad when asked existential or metaphysical questions (because they can't answer them).

Almost as a kind of political statement with an underlying axe to grind. You know, much like what Einstein observed... :snicker: As inspired by the book of Ecclesiastes (Existentialism), that human behavior is really nothing new under the sun :yikes:

Actually, it occurred to me that some of them are agnostic or even Christians or whatever. And that perhaps, they are just gaslighting people because they are weak in faith or want to understand apologetic's stuff...

OK. Follow this closely, if you feel eternity then you feel you are forever. You feel you are not your material body. Thus death is not the materialist "nothingness". — Zenny

Follow this closely, if you feel you can jump out the window and fly then you feel you can, but you can't. Try it.

@Fooloso4 Meaningless. Because one you don't feel that yourself,so its disingenuous to tell me. Two,I can disagree with someone if I feel their feelings are mistaken. Some people claim they haven't felt love. Is that a proof it doesn't exist?

What exactly do you mean by "the philosophical reasoning associated with a God's existence"?
— tim wood

In our context, it means that for the Atheist, if he/she reasons that God does not exist (philosophical discourse) then he/she puts themselves in a precarious position of defending their belief system (or value system). In other words, it puts them in an untenable position of authority. — 3017amen

If I happen to not believe there is a hippopotamus wearing a tutu in my closet, does that mean I have a belief or value system that puts me in a precarious position if I attempt to defend it? Or that puts me in an untenable position of authority?

And who reasons that God does not exist? People look for evidence, find none, and in passing note that Christian understandings of God preclude finding any, and conclude that there is no evidence. When the question is of existence, then, first, the exact nature of that existence must be defined. That done, absence of evidence of that existence justifies concluding non-existence. With this I distinguish between reasoning and using reason (R&R).

And the only belief or value system in play here is that in using reason and reasoning when, where, and as appropriate one learns about the world and one's place in it. That is, R&R is a tool and the most reliable tool for its purposes.

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?

Now, if you as a matter of faith believe things that I do not believe, ultimately, so what? If, on the other hand, you're quite sure I should believe those things, then why, or how, should I? You're welcome to stay over there with your beliefs - and your own rules of discourse and discussion. But why would you expect those to work in any environment where those have been well-tested and found empty, deficient, offensive, and counter-productive?

If you have faith, and you take the matters of that faith to be real in ways and senses that they are not, then you're crazy. Whether or not a problem a different question, but the ground fertile for toxicity.

Because one you don't feel that yourself,so its disingenuous to tell me. — Zenny

I said: "if you feel". That has nothing to do with what I do or do not feel. Some people do have a feeling of being able to fly. When acted on it can be fatal. Having a feeling does not mean that feeling is anything more than a feeling, whether it is the feeling you can fly or competently do philosophy or whatever.

@Fooloso4 Well I'm not dealing in "ifs" here. I've already stated some can be mistaken,just as scientists and philosophers can be! And tbh,how often is it you've met people who felt they could literally fly?

I've already stated some can be mistaken — Zenny

Do you include the feeling or experience or intuition of eternity in things about which one might be mistaken?

@Fooloso4 Nope,of course not. Come on,you can work that one out yourself. Read between my lines!

Life is not a platonic dialogue!

If I happen to not believe there is a hippopotamus wearing a tutu in my closet, does that mean I have a belief or value system that puts me in a precarious position if I attempt to defend it? Or that puts me in an untenable position of authority? — tim wood

Are you referring to Bayesian statistics and probability logic​?

And who reasons that God does not exist? — tim wood

An Atheist.

People look for evidence — tim wood

What's considered appropriate evidence?

Christian understandings of God preclude finding any, and conclude that there is no evidence. — tim wood

Jesus existed.

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable? — tim wood

Any positive statements that posits no-God puts you in that position.

Now, if you as a matter of faith believe things that I do not believe, ultimately, so what? If, on the other hand, you're quite sure I should believe those things, then why, or how, should I? You're welcome to stay over there with your beliefs - and your own rules of discourse and discussion. But why would you expect those to work in any environment where those have been well-tested and found empty, deficient, offensive, and counter-productive?
If you have faith, and you take the matters of that faith to be real in ways and senses that they are not, then you're crazy. Whether or not a problem a different question, but the ground fertile for toxicity. — tim wood

Is it possible to re-word that, not exactly sure what you're trying to articulate there.

Nope,of course not. — Zenny

What are you denying? I am not questioning whether you have this feeling, I am questioning whether it goes beyond that, that there is an eternity that is more than just your feeling. If I have a feeling I am going to win the lottery, I cannot be mistaken that I have this feeling, but that does not mean I will win the lottery.

Again, your feeling has nothing to do with what might happen when you die. You seem to have lost track of your own argument.

@Fooloso4 You think just by repeating "you've lost track of your argument" that somehow you are correct!?
I examined my position further up. Go read and then come back. Hint,if I'm eternal,no death except for the outer body.

Are you referring to Bayesian statistics and probability logic​? — 3017amen

No.

And who reasons that God does not exist?
— tim wood An Atheist. — 3017amen

And just pointed out to you that an atheist uses reason. For example, I can reason that no such hippo occupies my closet, but that not conclusive. On the other hand, I can use reason and by that be informed that looking in the closet might be a reasonable test. I then look, and form a conclusion based on evidence. See the difference? Aristotle, apparently, reasoned similarly that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects. Fortunately a general improvement in reasoning and understanding reasoning has occurred since then.

People look for evidence
— tim wood
What's considered appropriate evidence? — 3017amen

Evidence that comports with the conclusions drawn.

Christian understandings of God preclude finding any, and conclude that there is no evidence.
— tim wood Jesus existed. — 3017amen

And this no answer. Assuming you're Christian, you need a better understanding of your faith. The creed is, "We believe," not "There exists," or "He existed." Or if you are not a Christian, then whatever your faith, you still need to come to an understanding of what faith is.

Is it possible to re-word that, not exactly sure what you're trying to articulate there. — 3017amen

Try this. You can believe what you like. In this respect faith is like monopoly money. But if you want to buy something, there is a lot of work you have to do - which the Christian fathers, in the case of Christianity, have troubled to tell us cannot be done. A belief in the existence of things that lack that quality is a kind of madness, or even madness itself. And some good is done by the mad, but also much harm.

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?
— tim wood
Any positive statements that posits no-God puts you in that position. — 3017amen

The question is/was how or why?

if I'm eternal — Zenny

Well I'm not dealing in "ifs" here. — Zenny

Having a feeling of eternity does not mean you are eternal. You want to believe otherwise.

But you want more than just the comfort of your beliefs. You asked me why I am unsure of eternity, and then, on the basis of your feeling, tried to persuade me of eternity.

You conflate a feeling of eternity with life after death. For all you know, that feeling will die along with you.

@Fooloso4 Let's just say you obviously don't regard feelings as primary. In fact your trying to find exceptions where feelings may be mistaken.
When your hot do you dispute that? Do you dispute your feelings of hunger. Do you dispute your feelings of existing?
I don't have to persuade you,why would I? Your obviously closed minded. A worshipper of dialectics.
And just because your to wishy washy to be intuitively certain doesn't mean I'm not.

I suppose 'my atheism' is derived in part from fear of theists who take their bullshit literally and thickly spread it wherever they go. — 180 Proof

Yep (y) Somehow they just don't trust their deities to speak for themselves
(then they pretend to speak on behalf of their imaginary friends, then they pretend to be telepaths knowing that others fear their imaginary friends, ..., weird)

Because one you don't feel that yourself,so its disingenuous to tell me. Two,I can disagree with someone if I feel their feelings are mistaken. Some people claim they haven't felt love. Is that a proof it doesn't exist? — Zenny

Why would anyone care what you feel? (I don't mean in a cynical sense)
It's the moment you preach that your understanding of your feeling is equally applicable to everyone else, universally even, that we'll need a bit more than your words about your feelings (and not charged rambling and raving).

• https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/520013
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_feeling
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_illusion

@jorndoe And why should anyone care about your "thoughts"?
As if science doesn't claim its "findings" are universal!
You guys have no sense of irony or self awareness.
Is the "introspection illusion" universal?

Are you referring to Bayesian statistics and probability logic​? — 3017amenNo.
And who reasons that God does not exist?
— tim wood An Atheist. — 3017amenAnd just pointed out to you that an atheist uses reason. For example, I can reason that no such hippo occupies my closet, but that not conclusive. On the other hand, I can use reason and by that be informed that looking in the closet might be a reasonable test. I then look, and form a conclusion based on evidence. See the difference? Aristotle, apparently, reasoned similarly that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects. Fortunately a general improvement in reasoning and understanding reasoning has occurred since then. — tim wood

Well, there's a lot to unpack there. Do you want to defend Atheism based on cosmology, cognitive science (consciousness) , phenomenology, metaphysics, or... ? Let me know which means/method approach you want to argue for Atheism.

Alternatively, in Christianity, the historical Jesus existed, so if that's your hippo, then the hippo existed.

People look for evidence
— tim wood
What's considered appropriate evidence? — 3017amenEvidence that comports with the conclusions drawn. — tim wood

Is that through induction or deduction or something else... ?

then whatever your faith, you still need to come to an understanding of what faith is. — tim wood

Faith is irrelevant in our particular discussion for the time being. We are trying to discuss your no EOG using logic.

A belief in the existence of things that lack that quality is a kind of madness, or even madness itself. And some good is done by the mad, but also much harm. — tim wood

I'm not sure what that means. I can only speculate that there is some sort of grudge or axe to grind there. Alternatively, are you suggesting throwing out the baby with the bathwater? And if so, how does that relate to other dichotomous belief or value systems that humans hold as being true to them?

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?
— tim wood
Any positive statements that posits no-God puts you in that position. — 3017amenThe question is/was how or why? — tim wood

The how, is by advancing a proposition that a God does not exist. The why, would likely related to human sentient existence. You know, cognitive science kinds of stuff :joke:

When your hot do you dispute that? — Zenny

Good example! My wife says she is hot or cold and wants to turn the temperature up and down. The thermostat, however, is set at a specific temperature. 70 degrees F is the temperature whether she feels hot or cold.

Maybe you are too young or too sheltered to have ever found that your intuitive certainty about something turned out to be wrong, but it happens all the time.

Is it your intuitive certainty that led you to conclude that I am a worshiper of dialectics? If you had actually read the essay on Plato's Phaedo that you said you did you would know that this is false.

Tu quoque, ? :roll:
You didn't catch on.
You yourself mentioned that LoVe feeling.
As if that is somehow external to the lover.

Well, there's a lot to unpack there. Do you want to defend Atheism based on cosmology, cognitive science (consciousness) , phenomenology, metaphysics, or... ? Let me know which means/method approach you want to argue for Atheism. — 3017amen

Why does it need defending? Nor does anyone argue for atheism. You appear to want to play with these words to some end. What's that end? A-theism is simply a reasoned conclusion based on evidence, or more exactly the lack of evidence, compounded by in the case of Christianity the assertion that no such evidence is possible. In short, if you base your faith on the claim that God exists, then you are not a Christian.

And for most folks the existence of Jesus is not in question. But that is not the question.

Evidence that comports with the conclusions drawn.
— tim wood
Is that through induction or deduction or something else... ? — 3017amen

Whatever. If a conclusion is evidentiary, then it at the same time comports with the form of argument.

We are trying to discuss your no EOG using logic. — 3017amen

Ok. My methodology is scientific in nature, and the logic is that a) no evidence of existence warrants a conclusion of non-existence, and b) that the thing in question, if it's the Christian God, is said to be indemonstrable and inconceivable.

A belief in the existence of things that lack that quality is a kind of madness, or even madness itself. And some good is done by the mad, but also much harm.
— tim wood
I'm not sure what that means. I can only speculate that there is some sort of grudge or axe to grind there. — 3017amen

Speculate as you like, just don't confuse yourself into thinking that I do. Btw, were I to insist to you that there is a hippopotamus in my closet, would you suppose me mad, or that I had a hippopotamus (in a tutu) in my closet?

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?
— tim wood
Any positive statements that posits no-God puts you in that position. — 3017amenThe question is/was how or why?
— tim wood
The how, is by advancing a proposition that a God does not exist. The why, would likely related to human sentient existence. You know, cognitive science kinds of stuff — 3017amen

It seems either you are unwilling or unable to answer a simple question. Do you understand the words?

Now. In all of this, what is your point?

Why does it need defending? — tim wood

Interesting question. The answer lies somewhere in your participation in this thread, right? Let's parse why an 'atheist hopes there is no God', meaning, is the idea of 'hope' itself the reason you are participating? I mean, otherwise, as I've said, if you are advancing a position on no God, you have to explain your position, no?

Nor does anyone argue for atheism — tim wood

Sure they do. It's done all the time. That's why I asked you about which method of discourse you prefer... . BTW, any thoughts on that?

A-theism is simply a reasoned conclusion based on evidence, or more exactly the lack of evidence, compounded by in the case of Christianity the assertion that no such evidence is possible. — tim wood

As I've stated, Jesus existed.

In short, if you base your faith on the claim that God exists, then you are not a Christian. — tim wood

I'm not quite following you there, sorry.

if it's the Christian God, is said to be indemonstrable and inconceivable. — tim wood

Interesting concepts. Let's start with this question. In your mind, what is considered inconceivable? For instance, does that have something to do with being logically impossible?

Btw, were I to insist to you that there is a hippopotamus in my closet, would you suppose me mad, or that I had a hippopotamus (in a tutu) in my closet? — tim wood

Great question. Does that mean it's logically impossible for the hippo to be in your closet?

Alternatively, I insist that Jesus existed in history.

And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?
— tim wood
Any positive statements that posits no-God puts you in that position. — 3017amenThe question is/was how or why?
— tim wood
The how, is by advancing a proposition that a God does not exist. The why, would likely related to human sentient existence. You know, cognitive science kinds of stuff — 3017amenIt seems either you are unwilling or unable to answer a simple question. Do you understand the words? — tim wood

I've answered your question twice. You asked: "And how am I in a position of authority, and how or why would that position be untenable?"

And I answered with: The how, is by advancing a proposition that a God does not exist. The why, would likely relate to human sentient existence. You know, cognitive science kinds of stuff. (Which btw, is that your preferred method of discourse to prove no God-cognitive science?)

Let me know.

Now. In all of this, what is your point? — tim wood

You're being evasive and non-responsive. What is your point?

What is your point? — tim wood

Let me repeat third time:

Do you want to defend Atheism based on cosmology, cognitive science (consciousness) , phenomenology, metaphysics, or... ? Let me know which means/method approach you want to argue for Atheism.

Alternatively, in Christianity, the historical Jesus existed. So if that's your hippo, then the hippo existed.

@jorndoe Love is internal and external. The feeling and actions are the connection. Care to elaborate your behaviourism?

@Fooloso4 Nope. Your wife is right,you are wrong,your thermometer is not the judge.
Your essay means Jack.. Your posts and assertions show you value dialectic over intuition.

Your wife is right,you are wrong,your thermometer is not the judge. — Zenny

My wife is the judge of whether or not she feels hot, a properly calibrated thermometer does not judge it, simply provides an accurate reading of the temperature.

Your posts and assertions show you value dialectic over intuition. — Zenny

But this is not what you accused me of and not what I responded to. You accused me of worshiping dialectics. I don't. But you are right, I do value dialectic over intuition.

It is evident that you prefer to live in a world of your own making. Good luck to you.

@Fooloso4 Pedantry and apologetics.
No luck needed mate.
You prefer to live in a world of abstractions,obfuscations and maybes.
Maybe one day you will see how powerful human intuition can be. Until then,keep your thermometer handy old boy.

Congratulations. You have proved again your inability/unwillingness to read or be responsive, which becomes poisonous.

Alternatively, in Christianity, the historical Jesus existed. — 3017amen

And again, as was noted, no one questions this. But it is not his existence that matters, is it.

Do you want to defend Atheism based on cosmology, cognitive science (consciousness) , phenomenology, metaphysics, or... ? Let me know which means/method — 3017amen

This was answered exactly.

you want to argue for Atheism — 3017amen

And no one argues for atheism.

But don't bother answering because you have already checked out of this conversation. It's too bad, because it's you who closed the door with your broken record.

As to my question as to what your point is. as is your SOP, you never answered.