Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe get a life?

But in any case, nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have mentioned justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

The religious claim to the land needs to be relegated to the rubbish bin where it belongs. It has no place in law or ethics.

Is it rightfully Israeli land from an "objective observer" standpoint? If so please explain why. And more importantly what land you think belongs to whom exactly. Is Sudan Egyptian land? Is China mongolian land? Is the US British land? What about Australia? Why or why not.

Are you white or are you an Arab, because if you're a white non-muslim I have no idea what causes you to read history this way. If you're an Arab muslim it makes sense. — BitconnectCarlos

It's funny how you think this has anything to do with anything. You're the only one that thinks my skin-colour, religion or ethnicity has any relevance here... which is pretty racist I guess.

Israel's defenders on this thread (and in the media) have one major play, equivocating between "Israel has the right to defend itself" and "Israel has the right to defend itself [by any means]". — Baden

:up: :clap:

The 1967 war was complex — Benkei

And so...

I agree as well and I don't deny Israeli crimes, although I think we may disagree on the scope of these crimes. — BitconnectCarlos

Indeed, let's not discuss death but how many deaths and how the deaths were brought about. Something tells me we're in a whole lot of trouble. Nevertheless, a fine point.

Israel in the past has definitely been a victim that has faced annihilation on several occasions — BitconnectCarlos

What follows as of necessity?

Israeli citizens are frequently killed which is considered by Jews everywhere as Israel being attacked. — BitconnectCarlos

In Israel the homicide rate produced by criminal activities is relatively low: in 2015, there were 2.4 people killed per 100,000 inhabitants (in Switzerland the number is 0.71, in Russia it is 14.9, in South Africa it is 34, in Venezuela it is 49). In 2009, 135 people were murdered in Israel. The percentage of women killed by their partners who were Arab decreased from 9 out of 11 in 2009 to 10 out of 15 in 2010 and 11 out of 24 in 2011.

According to Israel's police, the number of murders is continually decreasing. In 2018, 103 people were the victims of homicide, compared with 136 people in 2017. The murder rate in 2018 was 1.14 people per 100,000 inhabitants. — Wikipedia

"In Israel the homicide rate produced by criminal activities is relatively low"...but not ZERO, at least not yet. Sorry to hear that!

And I 100% agree that Israel has committed atrocities in the past — BitconnectCarlos

That sure, huh? Heisenberg would've been mortified.

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. — Jesus Christ

But in any case, nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have mentioned justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. — Benkei

And nothing you've said justifies the Arab world's 2700 year history of murdering, ethnically cleansing, and subjugating Jews to second class citizens. Israel demands reparations now.

Let's have this discussion. Why do we only have to have the discussions that you want? We'll first do my discussion, then we'll do yours, how's that sound?

You want to play the victim game we can play the victim game and don't for a second even think about telling me that the oppression of my people isn't relevant to modern times.

Nothing you said is a justification for how Palestinians are currently treated.

Israel does not get to play the victim card in a situation where it is the perpetrator. You keep trying it, it's still wrong and it makes you sound like an utter &@&$ for continually bringing irrelevant shit up.

Reparations have no bearing on war crimes.

You're the only one that thinks my skin-colour, religion or ethnicity has any relevance here... which is pretty racist I guess. — Benkei

Yeah, me and the entire Middle East...so the people involved in the conflict as opposed to enlightened Europeans who have zero personal or cultural connection to the affair, yet believe they're in perfect right to judge everything.

ah so you admit you're a racist then. OK, that's solved then, you're no longer worth my time. Buh-bye!

Nothing you said is a justification for how Palestinians are currently treated. — Benkei

Nothing you've said justifies the Assyrians destroying the Kingdom of Judea in 750 BCE and ethnically cleansing the Jews there.

Nothing you've said justifies the Assyrians destroying the Kingdom of Judea in 750 BCE and ethnically cleansing the Jews there. — BitconnectCarlos

:lol:

Why are you laughing at ethic cleansing? Are you a racist?

The only cleansing I'm laughing at is the your last brain cell as it evaporates under the weight of its own disingenuity.

ah so you admit you're a racist then. OK, that's solved then, you're no longer worth my time. Buh-bye! — Benkei

If you're unwilling to accept that ethnicity and religion play a role in this conflict then it's probably best we stop talking about this.

This isn't my usual line, but if people want to play the victim game we can play the victim game. @Benkai started the victim game, I'm just finishing it.

Dead Palestinians are not a game, but it's no surprise you have to treat it that way.

Neither are dead Jews. But apparently dead Jews are a game to you because you've laughed at the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Just admit you don't care about dead Jews, it'll make things so much easier.

It's true that I do not care one iota about some dead Jews in 750BCE (I don't discriminate tho - I don't care about dead anyone in 750BCE). You got me! Present day ethnic cleansing tho, got alot of time for that.

Do you care about dead Jews in the 20th century? 19th century? When do you draw the line?

Ethnic cleansing is par for the course in the Middle East.

Do you care about dead Jews in the 20th century? 19th century? When do you draw the line? — BitconnectCarlos

I draw the line at what can be done in the present by present day aggressors.

Alright so if the Arabs overran the Jews and made Jews into second class citizens, as Jews have always been under Arab rule, you'd be on the Jews side. Well that's great to hear, but I'm gonna have to say "no thanks" to your support.

That's what being principled means, yes. But now that you're done live action role playing where I live rent free in your head, perhaps we can get back again to the issue of real life Israeli state terrorism.

Nothing you've said justifies the Assyrians destroying the Kingdom of Judea in 750 BCE. — BitconnectCarlos

That's what being principled means, yes. — StreetlightX

Those principles are the luxury of the uninvolved outsider. It makes no difference to you if Israel collapses, and that's fine, it wouldn't matter to me if Australia was in some conflict or war and they got overrun. They were probably the oppressors anyway.

It makes no difference to you if Israel collapses, and that's fine, it wouldn't matter to me if Australia was in some conflict or war and they got overrun. They were probably the oppressors anyway. — BitconnectCarlos

Ah, I see you're not done role-playing. When you are, hit me up.

Amazing.

I couldn't help myself, Benkei started playing the victim game and I had jump right on in there.

I couldn't help myself, Benkei started playing the victim game and I had jump right on in there. — BitconnectCarlos

Well if you're willing to disavow all of your dialogue with @Benkei...

What people don't understand about these discussions is that there's two Carlos'.

You, @ssu and @Ciceronianus the White are getting the reasonable, "objective" Carlos because your writing actually feels genuine to me. We're having an actual conversation about the subject and you seem to be approaching it from an honest standpoint. I am doing my best to distance myself from my identity to engage you productively.

I've been talking with Benkei for a while on this matter and I've never, ever got the sense he's attempting to be objective. I finally just threw up my hands today with him.

But yeah, this line is not something I'd ever argue with you or ssu because it's totally unproductive. I just had to get it off my chest with Benkei after his tirades.

But yeah, this line is not something I'd ever argue with you or ssu because it's totally unproductive. I just had to get it off my chest with Benkei after his tirades. — BitconnectCarlos

What people don't understand about these discussions is that there's two Carlos'. — BitconnectCarlos

I did suspect you were posting disingenuously with @Benkei and @StreetlightX, as it seems did they:

Ah, I see you're not done role-playing. When you are, hit me up. — StreetlightX

But in any case, nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have mentioned justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. — Benkei

Though I believe @Benkei is actually attempting to engage you rationally here. I believe if you asked him principled questions like: "What is a war crime?" and "Why do you believe Israel is an apartheid state?" and other such things they would be able (but perhaps not willing at this point) to give you either detailed answers or resources.

What I didn't understand was which Carlos was displaying your actual intent. From personal experience, if I adopt a troll persona I'm way more serious about the contested claims than I let on - if I'm at the stage of discussion where I start thinking rhetorically and strategically, like you seemed to, it's ceased to be a game because I'm treating it like a strategy. So yeah, I made the assumption that you were like me and the knowingly absurd comments were actually closer to your true position on the issue than the more even handed ones you made - the passion which moves the reason as it were.

I'm at a total loss what "tirades" I have brought here but OK. I've consistently repeated that what he brings up is irrelevant because there's no excusing the racism in Israel or war crimes committed by it. I've repeated this for 50 pages and at some point I start omitting the argumentation because I already offered that several times over.

But this is, I guess, typical, if you don't have an argument, you can always play the victim. Now where have we seen that before...

I did suspect you were posting disingenuously — fdrake

If we're going to frame the conflict as a zero-sum game, as other posters have, then I can play that game too. No, history does not begin in 1948 like the Europeans seem to believe. We're not going to solve much by looking back where each side can bring up endless grievances, we're going to do much better by looking forward.

Though I believe Benkei is actually attempting to engage you rationally here. I believe if you asked him principled questions like: "What is a war crime?" and "Why do you believe Israel is an apartheid state?" and other such things they would be able (but perhaps not willing at this point) to give you either detailed answers or resources. — fdrake

It wasn't those questions that you cited that offended me. It's a number of things that we could dive into if you like but otherwise I'd rather just move on.

What I didn't understand was which Carlos was displaying your actual intent. — fdrake

It all depends on the way the conflict is being framed. With most people it'll be civil and I'll try to distance myself from my identity as much as possible, but the minute one side appears more intent on simply demonizing the other rather than finding a solution I'm done.

You can of course criticize and ask questions but it's all about how you phrase it. You've asked me a ton of questions and I respond and there's never been an issue. I've been more than happy to admit that Israel is far from perfect.

It's all about the way you frame it. I approach the issue asking "what's the best way to help the Palestinians improve their position today" but others are simply more interested in demonizing one side. Israel is much more amenable to working with a Palestinian government that doesn't demand its immediate dissolution and refuses to recognize it.

As for Benkei, I realize that "tirades" was the wrong word. The issue here is phrasing and approach. And the fact that a white European is so, so convinced that the WB and Gaza, for whatever reason, absolutely belong to the Palestinians 100%.