Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos
Maybe get a life? — Benkei
I am speaking here as a Jew, not as an "objective" observer here. I don't think there is such a thing as a truly objective observer. Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos
Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos
That's my answer. It just depends on the specific scenario. For example, if the IDF invaded Gaza, Palestinian militants would be justified in resisting the invasion with force. Just as if Palestinian militants invaded Israel, the converse would be true. Sometimes one or the other may be more or less justified in using violence. The asymmetry is that Israel is the occupier. In that sense, their violence is constant. — Baden
But this is what happens, tit-for-tat punishment attacks against the innocent create a spiral of hatred that prolongs conflicts. — Baden
I still don't really know what you're getting at here. — Baden
IF Israel is unjustified using violence.
IS Palestine unjustified using violence? — schopenhauer1
What do you do if the militants who are shooting into Israel disappear into civilian populations? I am not saying bomb indiscriminately, but just in terms of Israeli forces finding the perpetrators. I legitimately don't know as I am not very knowledgeable in terms of the range of military/police options/actions against perceived (or actual) terrorist threats in heavily disputed and populated areas. — schopenhauer1
People from both sides are interviewed. If you look the whole clip, it explains interestingly also how many in the US, Middle-East experts and also Secretary of State George Marshall, were opposed to the idea of Israel and feared (correctly) that it would start a war, but Truman had his way.
The history is what it is. On the Arab account maybe things only begin with the creation of Israel/the "nakba"/ "the great humiliation" - but for the Jews Israel is only the latest chapter in a 3000 year story - the culmination of centuries of struggle and exile. — BitconnectCarlos
"Their grandparents massacred us so it's ok for us to massacre them now" — khaled
It all depends on the way the conflict is being framed. With most people it'll be civil and I'll try to distance myself from my identity as much as possible, but the minute one side appears more intent on simply demonizing the other rather than finding a solution I'm done. — BitconnectCarlos
I approach the issue asking "what's the best way to help the Palestinians improve their position today" but others are simply more interested in demonizing one side. Israel is much more amenable to working with a Palestinian government that doesn't demand its immediate dissolution and refuses to recognize it. — BitconnectCarlos
If we're going to frame the conflict as a zero-sum game, as other posters have, then I can play that game too. No, history does not begin in 1948 like the Europeans seem to believe. We're not going to solve much by looking back where each side can bring up endless grievances, we're going to do much better by looking forward. — BitconnectCarlos
I mean that's pretty clear, no? — fdrake
What is the current source of the oppression of the Palestinians? The answer to that would be Israel and Hamas and the PA, but also the Arab countries which are complicit in not helping their fellow Arabs. To only focus on one of these sources skews the conversation.
— BitconnectCarlos
No, this is not the issue. The contributory negligence or guilt of other parties does not excuse Israeli war crimes. — Benkei
As it stands the Palestinians are using whatever political means available to help themselves; yes, including terrible violence; it's up to Israel to increase the space of acceptable means. It has been for some time, but it doesn't happen. — fdrake
This is a tactical / operational modus operandi that Israel has.Let's say this is the case:
Israel is unjustified to use the bombings they have been in pursuing "security". — schopenhauer1
Would you all agree that with this then?
Hamas/Palestinian fighters who use violent means to get their ends are unjustified? — schopenhauer1
What do you do if the militants who are shooting into Israel disappear into civilian populations? I am not saying bomb indiscriminately, but just in terms of Israeli forces finding the perpetrators. I legitimately don't know as I am not very knowledgeable in terms of the range of military/police options/actions against perceived (or actual) terrorist threats in heavily disputed and populated areas. — schopenhauer1
Just ask yourself: How did (West) Europeans find this harmony to try something as crazy as the European Union? Even if it has it's faults, it's pretty different endeavour from the past. How did the militarism and jingoism die in Europe?In any case the approach that I go with is how do we best move forward from where we are now. I think we should be working to bring people from both sides of the fence together. I don't have much faith in Netanyahu, and I have zero in Hamas. I guess I would have to favor a grassroots solutions if that type of thing is at all possible.
The history is what it is. On the Arab account maybe things only begin with the creation of Israel/the "nakba"/ "the great humiliation" - but for the Jews Israel is only the latest chapter in a 3000 year story - the culmination of centuries of struggle and exile. — BitconnectCarlos
I was trying to frame the issue in a constructive, forward-looking way and Benkei, for whatever reason, refocuses the discussion exclusively on Israel. It's ridiculous to me because it implies that Hamas and the PA are either non-existent (or don't matter) or are Israeli puppets - neither of which are true. The PA and Hamas are the direct regional governments of the Palestinian people. They are quite relevant and play an active role in the daily lives of Palestinians. — BitconnectCarlos
.This is difficult to do as Hamas will arrest Palestinians who attempt to reach out to Israelis.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza-activists/hamas-releases-palestinian-peace-activists-arrested-after-zoom-call-with-israelis-idUSKBN27B2JU
These peace meetings are considered treason by Hamas. — BitconnectCarlos
I'll notice that except for a few diaspora Jews nobody seems to have defended Israel here. And other than Khaled I think they're mostly white males from western countries. — Benkei
Hamas has consciously put itself at odds with peace as an ideal and the mutually agreed conditions of the two-state solution. — Kenosha Kid
an entity that a) refuses to accept peace as a condition of a peace treaty and b) refuses to acknowledge the existence of the other state. — Kenosha Kid
Hmm... Due process afforded after being charged with an actual crime according to local law. That's already a step up from the "administrative" detention of Israel where no charge is laid and Palestinians are in prison for months and sometimes even years. Try again... — Benkei
I'm confident if this is achieved that Hamas too, will recognise Israel as a State because then the borders, Palestinian rights and status of Jerusalem would be agreed so there's no risk in recognising the other party as sovereign. — Benkei
Israel doesn't recognise a Palestinian State either and even when Rabin and Arafat got close, Palestine would not be a State but an "autonomous region". — Benkei
Did the Arab governments arrest and sentence their murderers? — BitconnectCarlos
Point is half of what you right here takes the form of "The Arabs did that to us so it's fine for us to do it to the Arabs" — khaled
I've never said it was fine. — BitconnectCarlos
So what then? What's the upshot? — BitconnectCarlos
You spent 58 pages justifying it by comparison which is a terrible justification. — khaled
But that is precisely what they've refused to agree to, along with, on the establishment of a Palestinian state, the government of that state ceasing hostilities against Israel. — Kenosha Kid
Enough people want this conflict to go on. Especially the religious fanatics. People can have this strange discussion of who is morally more justified than the other in a long conflict like this. A better discussion would be how the conflict could be ended. Without the virtue signaling. — ssu
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