There are extremists on both sides and they both work off each other - one side says or does something inflammatory and the worst part of the other side responds. — BitconnectCarlos
I think this is the key factor. The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict. — Mystic
Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn
The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict.
The people on the ground need to make their own existential decisions on how to live a peaceful life.
Civilians are the peace process. — Mystic
Ok, fair enough. But is residence the same as being the rulers? As example, the native people of North America were here at least 10,000 years before Europeans arrived. Should the continent be turned back over to their control due to that history? Where do such historical claims end? — Foghorn
What's the media situation in Israel? Are there hard right and hard left channels feeding the fire for profit, as is the case here? — Foghorn
If they're going across a border then Israel and Egypt control it, otherwise internally it's Hamas. It is Hamas who is hunting down and executing gays, it is Hamas who is arresting grassroots peace activists in Gaza, it is Hamas who is subjugating women and allowing them no freedoms. There are definitely restrictions on imports and that does make life harder for the Gazans. It's not a good situation but I think both Israel and Egypt have serious security concerns over Hamas. — BitconnectCarlos
When it comes to the West Bank Israel controls part of it and the palestinians control part of it. They have it organized so that Israel only governs Israelis and the Palestinians govern their own people. — BitconnectCarlos
Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn
Israel controls Gaza’s territorial waters and airspace and has blocked the building of an airport and seaport, significantly complicating efforts to travel abroad. Israel also controls the movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza, except for at Gaza’s border with Egypt, which the Egyptian government also significantly restricts. Israel controls all transit between Gaza and the West Bank and maintains a “policy of separation” between the two parts of the OPT. It controls the Palestinian population registry, which determines eligibility for establishing legal residency and obtaining an ID card. It sets the rates for the customs and value-added taxes that it collects on behalf of the PA on goods entering the common market. It enforces a so-called “no-go” zone inside Gaza, near Israeli territory. It controls the infrastructure upon which Gaza relies, including electricity lines, the underwater cable that phone calls are placed on, the network that provides internet, and the frequencies assigned to Palestinian cell phone companies.
...Since 2010, Israeli authorities have allowed most everyday goods to enter, but sharply restrict and often prohibit altogether what they deem “dual-use” items or those that could be used for military purposes, such as for building or fortifying tunnels into Israel.The government’s “dual-use” list, though, includes both overly broad categories and items that are vital to meet the needs of Gaza’s population, including “communications equipment,” “steel elements and construction products,” “drilling equipment,” “fertilizers and chemicals,” gas tanks, castor oil, and “vehicles except for personal vehicles (not including 4X4 vehicles). Israeli authorities have also claimed certain kinds of medical equipment, including x-ray equipment, as “dual use,” according to the WHO. Gisha has documented how many of these items are “rarely, if ever, allowed into the Strip.”
...These restrictions have devastated Gaza’s economy. Gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in Gaza dropped 23 percent between 1994 and 2016 in real dollars. Eighty percent of Gaza’s population relies on humanitarian aid, according to UNRWA,and more than half the population lives below the poverty line. Unemployment rates in Gaza have for some time hovered around 50 percent and are higher for young people and women
But then all of Israel's neighbors have money and arms. And even ALL of them together have never been able to defeat Israel. — Foghorn
Ok, so what is the nature of the argument?
Palestinians want Jews out and full control of West Bank?
Jews vary in opinion from agreement, to moderate compromise, to full rejection?
If most Jews and most Palestinians could agree on anything, what might that be? — Foghorn
he main issue is and has always been the presence of a Jewish governing body that claims control of even one inch of Muslim land. — BitconnectCarlos
Yeah I don't use cultural relativism to excuse atrocity and inhumanity. — StreetlightX
You also don't use it to understand conflicts as they are understood by those actually engaged in them. — BitconnectCarlos
The issue here is that it's not just about armies - there's chemical and biological weapons as well. — BitconnectCarlos
would also pose a serious security threat to israel as missiles are now able to penetrate further into Israel and hit bigger population centers. — BitconnectCarlos
Many if not most Palestinians want Israel - as a Jewish governing body - gone entirely. The WB would just be a concession towards that goal. — BitconnectCarlos
If we don't actually care that much about the innocents, that's irrelevant to an outrage based conservation about those innocents? If it's true that we don't really care, then wouldn't it add additional clarity to honestly brand this conversation as a form of casual entertainment? Isn't adding additional clarity kinda what philosophy is supposed to be about?
I agree that a claim that we don't care is debatable, which is why I keep asking for evidence to the contrary.
I've tried to explain the relevance. If we are locked in a repetitive pattern of addictive conflict behavior in political threads here on this forum, that at least raises the question of whether the same phenomena is at play in the MiddleEast. Here's why. We're human. So are they.
To the degree participants are fighting because they enjoy fighting, then any solution we might cook up is not likely to be very helpful. If true, it would add clarity to know that. If false, it would add clarity to know that too. — Foghorn
It would be helpful to the thread if you could more clearly articulate what you feel the appropriate alternative to the status quo should be. — Foghorn
So what do you picture? An eternal struggle? Does this end only when one of the parties is dead on the floor? — Foghorn
Doesn't controlling the West Bank just put off the inevitable? — Foghorn
Yes, which is why I've suggested leaving the Middle East. — Foghorn
For Israel to not be an apartheid state would be one. For it to cease its land grabs and policy of population displacement would be another. For it to stop engaging in collective punishment by means of blockade - another war crime - would be yet another. In fact stopping Israeli war crimes altogether would be nice. Can we agree on this or is resistance to land grabbing, apartheid, and war crimes a step too far for your sensitive soul? — StreetlightX
I guess I place my hope in grassroots movements; the two groups have to learn to live together, there is no other option. — BitconnectCarlos
Judaism is not a race nor are Arabs. It makes no sense to call Israel racist against Arabs. If Israel is apartheid why do Arab Christians do quite well in Israel? — BitconnectCarlos
You don't care. So why should I? — Foghorn
You really have no idea about the facts on the ground do you? For instance, it's illegal for Christians to preach to Jews (but of course not the other way around). — Benkei
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