There are extremists on both sides and they both work off each other - one side says or does something inflammatory and the worst part of the other side responds. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, I hear you, that is how it works everywhere, the nutzos feed off each other.

We've got a lot of that going on here in America in recent years too. And yes, some politicians deliberately feed the fire, as does the media.

What's the media situation in Israel? Are there hard right and hard left channels feeding the fire for profit, as is the case here?

I think this is the key factor. The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict. — Mystic

Don't forget the media. At least here in the States, a shining city on a hill built from genocide and slavery, the media is a big player in feeding the cultural divides.

It's all about money. Media lives on ad dollars. Ad dollars are based on audience size. Audience size is based on serving the lowest common denominator. Stimulation, stimulation, stimulation, keep us glued to the channel for as long as possible, by any means necessary. The competition is fierce for our attention, which drives most channels to ever further extremes.

This is you in a nutshell!!! — Mystic

Wait a second, are you saying I live in a nutshell???? Whoa, hang on, let me get my rocket launcher..

@Foghorn 100% agree. But I think the media is in bed with the politicians. And this is all about big business and moneyed interests.
The govt and media loves to exaggerate dangers,as not only fear sells but fear is the method of control for all governments.

Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn

If they're going across a border then Israel and Egypt control it, otherwise internally it's Hamas. It is Hamas who is hunting down and executing gays, it is Hamas who is arresting grassroots peace activists in Gaza, it is Hamas who is subjugating women and allowing them no freedoms. There are definitely restrictions on imports and that does make life harder for the Gazans. It's not a good situation but I think both Israel and Egypt have serious security concerns over Hamas.

The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict.
The people on the ground need to make their own existential decisions on how to live a peaceful life.
Civilians are the peace process. — Mystic

:100:

Ok, fair enough. But is residence the same as being the rulers? As example, the native people of North America were here at least 10,000 years before Europeans arrived. Should the continent be turned back over to their control due to that history? Where do such historical claims end? — Foghorn

When it comes to the West Bank Israel controls part of it and the palestinians control part of it. They have it organized so that Israel only governs Israelis and the Palestinians govern their own people. West Bank is definitely significantly better than Gaza. Jews have been living in the WB for centuries at least, continuously, and they want to be governed by other Jews.

What's the media situation in Israel? Are there hard right and hard left channels feeding the fire for profit, as is the case here? — Foghorn

I'm not entirely sure since I don't live in Israel but I do have family who does. I have spent time there but I wasn't watching the news.

Yes, pit the little people against each other, and then rule over the resulting mess. Divide and conquer.

@Foghorn.
Just recently I feel the younger generation of western Muslims are becoming much less political than the previous one,so that's good news.
Politics is a losing game for the ordinary folk.
I declare no confidence in all governments round the world.
Mr nutshell!!!

If they're going across a border then Israel and Egypt control it, otherwise internally it's Hamas. It is Hamas who is hunting down and executing gays, it is Hamas who is arresting grassroots peace activists in Gaza, it is Hamas who is subjugating women and allowing them no freedoms. There are definitely restrictions on imports and that does make life harder for the Gazans. It's not a good situation but I think both Israel and Egypt have serious security concerns over Hamas. — BitconnectCarlos

Ok, that's about what I thought.

I get that Hamas are bad guys, no argument there. But then, isn't that the norm across the Middle East?

I get that if the grip on Gaza was lifted Iran and others would probably fuel the fire by giving Hamas money and arms. But then all of Israel's neighbors have money and arms. And even ALL of them together have never been able to defeat Israel.

What I'm suggesting is undermining one of Hamas's key talking points by giving them their own state. Most of the world would accept this as a reasonable solution. And then, if they use that state to attack Israel, roll the tanks across the border, go house to house, string up all the Hamas leaders, like the WWII allies did to the Nazis. Then leave.

If the next government of Gaza attacks again, repeat the procedure. And keep doing that until they get the point.

The theory here is that so long as the Palestinians don't have their own state, the world will see Israel as the aggressor. This matters because Israel is a very small country.

However, if a Palestinian state attacks Israel, then Israel is reframed as the victim, who is just in defending itself from outside attack.

I'm sure there are counter arguments to this. Would be happy to hear them. I am definitely not a Middle East expert.

When it comes to the West Bank Israel controls part of it and the palestinians control part of it. They have it organized so that Israel only governs Israelis and the Palestinians govern their own people. — BitconnectCarlos

Ok, so what is the nature of the argument?

Palestinians want Jews out and full control of West Bank?

Jews vary in opinion from agreement, to moderate compromise, to full rejection?

If most Jews and most Palestinians could agree on anything, what might that be?

Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn

Via the UN Human Rights Watch:

Israel controls Gaza’s territorial waters and airspace and has blocked the building of an airport and seaport, significantly complicating efforts to travel abroad. Israel also controls the movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza, except for at Gaza’s border with Egypt, which the Egyptian government also significantly restricts. Israel controls all transit between Gaza and the West Bank and maintains a “policy of separation” between the two parts of the OPT. It controls the Palestinian population registry, which determines eligibility for establishing legal residency and obtaining an ID card. It sets the rates for the customs and value-added taxes that it collects on behalf of the PA on goods entering the common market. It enforces a so-called “no-go” zone inside Gaza, near Israeli territory. It controls the infrastructure upon which Gaza relies, including electricity lines, the underwater cable that phone calls are placed on, the network that provides internet, and the frequencies assigned to Palestinian cell phone companies.

...Since 2010, Israeli authorities have allowed most everyday goods to enter, but sharply restrict and often prohibit altogether what they deem “dual-use” items or those that could be used for military purposes, such as for building or fortifying tunnels into Israel.The government’s “dual-use” list, though, includes both overly broad categories and items that are vital to meet the needs of Gaza’s population, including “communications equipment,” “steel elements and construction products,” “drilling equipment,” “fertilizers and chemicals,” gas tanks, castor oil, and “vehicles except for personal vehicles (not including 4X4 vehicles). Israeli authorities have also claimed certain kinds of medical equipment, including x-ray equipment, as “dual use,” according to the WHO. Gisha has documented how many of these items are “rarely, if ever, allowed into the Strip.”

...These restrictions have devastated Gaza’s economy. Gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in Gaza dropped 23 percent between 1994 and 2016 in real dollars. Eighty percent of Gaza’s population relies on humanitarian aid, according to UNRWA,and more than half the population lives below the poverty line. Unemployment rates in Gaza have for some time hovered around 50 percent and are higher for young people and women

These quotes barely scratch the surface.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

I understand your idea here and it's crossed my mind as well. I'm also not claiming to be a Middle East expert by any means.

But then all of Israel's neighbors have money and arms. And even ALL of them together have never been able to defeat Israel. — Foghorn

The issue here is that it's not just about armies - there's chemical and biological weapons as well.

Israel withdrawing from the WB -- apart from being a logistical headache and displacing hundreds of thousands would also pose a serious security threat to israel as missiles are now able to penetrate further into Israel and hit bigger population centers. Israel is significant less secure without the WB and even by your own admittance Israel just setting itself up to lash out against and reclaim more territory. I understand what you're saying though.

Ok, so what is the nature of the argument?

Palestinians want Jews out and full control of West Bank?

Jews vary in opinion from agreement, to moderate compromise, to full rejection?

If most Jews and most Palestinians could agree on anything, what might that be? — Foghorn

Many if not most Palestinians want Israel - as a Jewish governing body - gone entirely. The WB would just be a concession towards that goal. Many Palestinians I think would be fine with Jews being in the region as long as they're subordinate to Muslim governance which obviously makes Jews subjugated. The issue that many people don't realize is that Gaza and the WB are proxies - the main issue is and has always been the presence of a Jewish governing body that claims control of even one inch of Muslim land.

he main issue is and has always been the presence of a Jewish governing body that claims control of even one inch of Muslim land. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah nothing to do with Israeli ethnic cleansing and state exercised terror.

No it is Israel's existence. But understanding this would involve taking on the perspective of another culture/religion which is clearly beyond your capabilities.

Yeah I don't use cultural relativism to excuse atrocity and inhumanity.

Also the idea that subjugating and devastating an entire population of people is some kind of Jewish cultural right is about as Antisemitic as I can imagine.

Yeah I don't use cultural relativism to excuse atrocity and inhumanity. — StreetlightX

You also don't use it to understand conflicts as they are understood by those actually engaged in them.

You also don't use it to understand conflicts as they are understood by those actually engaged in them. — BitconnectCarlos

Right, to excuse atrocity and inhumanity, which Israel is engaged in.

We're not talking about atrocity right now. We're talking about understanding.

The issue here is that it's not just about armies - there's chemical and biological weapons as well. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, which is why I've suggested leaving the Middle East. It seems to me that part of the world is a Biblical scale calamity just waiting to happen. Syria and Yemem come to mind of course, and that could be just the beginning.

Israel has proven it can overcome the strength of it's neighbors. But can it overcome their weaknesses? What if the entire Arab world becomes one big failed state?

would also pose a serious security threat to israel as missiles are now able to penetrate further into Israel and hit bigger population centers. — BitconnectCarlos

Right, but sooner or later those missiles will be better targeted, and able to hit anywhere in Israel. It's just a matter of time. Doesn't controlling the West Bank just put off the inevitable?

Many if not most Palestinians want Israel - as a Jewish governing body - gone entirely. The WB would just be a concession towards that goal. — BitconnectCarlos

Ok, I hear you, leaving the WB doesn't really solve the conflict. So what do you picture? An eternal struggle? Does this end only when one of the parties is dead on the floor?

We get that you reject the status quo, because you've said that now about 36,000 times. Ok, fair enough, no problem, got it.

It would be helpful to the thread if you could more clearly articulate what you feel the appropriate alternative to the status quo should be.

Do you think the Palestinians should have their own state? If yes, are you persuaded that such an outcome would improve their situation?

If we don't actually care that much about the innocents, that's irrelevant to an outrage based conservation about those innocents? If it's true that we don't really care, then wouldn't it add additional clarity to honestly brand this conversation as a form of casual entertainment? Isn't adding additional clarity kinda what philosophy is supposed to be about?

I agree that a claim that we don't care is debatable, which is why I keep asking for evidence to the contrary.

I've tried to explain the relevance. If we are locked in a repetitive pattern of addictive conflict behavior in political threads here on this forum, that at least raises the question of whether the same phenomena is at play in the MiddleEast. Here's why. We're human. So are they.

To the degree participants are fighting because they enjoy fighting, then any solution we might cook up is not likely to be very helpful. If true, it would add clarity to know that. If false, it would add clarity to know that too. — Foghorn

Were the quotes correct or not? Is Israel guilty of collective punishment?

It would be helpful to the thread if you could more clearly articulate what you feel the appropriate alternative to the status quo should be. — Foghorn

For Israel to not be an apartheid state would be one. For it to cease its land grabs and policy of population displacement would be another. For it to stop engaging in collective punishment by means of blockade - another war crime - would be yet another. In fact stopping Israeli war crimes altogether would be nice. Can we agree on this or is resistance to land grabbing, apartheid, and war crimes a step too far for your sensitive soul?

So what do you picture? An eternal struggle? Does this end only when one of the parties is dead on the floor? — Foghorn

I really hope not. I guess I place my hope in grassroots movements; the two groups have to learn to live together, there is no other option. You might want to check out Rudy Rochman on youtube he has a bunch of interesting discussions on this topic which pushes more of a ground-up solution. He also opposes Israel on a range of topics. Regardless, if we continue to frame the conflict in certain ways (which we see examples of in this thread) there will simply never be peace.

Doesn't controlling the West Bank just put off the inevitable? — Foghorn

Israel does not control all of the WB, they've already gave back some of it to the Palestinians... I believe in '95. Even before Israel captured it in '67 it was controlled by Jordan, not the Palestinians. And the Jordanians only took an interest in it as a way to attack Israel during the Independence War. I have no idea who rightfully controls it and the fact that complete outsiders have such strong opinions on this is bizarre. Jews have been living in the WB alongside Arabs for centuries.

Yes, which is why I've suggested leaving the Middle East. — Foghorn

Jewish culture has such deep roots in Israel (it's where Judaism was formed) that packing up and leaving out of fear is just cowardice. A people like that don't even deserve their own state.

Is Israel guilty of collective punishment? — Benkei

You don't care. So why should I?

For Israel to not be an apartheid state would be one. For it to cease its land grabs and policy of population displacement would be another. For it to stop engaging in collective punishment by means of blockade - another war crime - would be yet another. In fact stopping Israeli war crimes altogether would be nice. Can we agree on this or is resistance to land grabbing, apartheid, and war crimes a step too far for your sensitive soul? — StreetlightX

You've said all this already about a thousand times.

If Israel stops exercising any control over Palestinians, the result of that is a Palestinian state. This is why I keep asking you if that is what you wish to see happen. And, if yes, do you feel that this would improve the situation of Palestinians?

This is not a point. It's a question.

I guess I place my hope in grassroots movements; the two groups have to learn to live together, there is no other option. — BitconnectCarlos

Well, there is another option. Victory for one side or another. The Palestinians need only end the Jewish state and they have their victory. To achieve victory and a real peace Israel would need to remove all the Arab nations, and Iran too. Short of that, eternal conflict seems the future, in one form or another.

I see a way out, but agree it won't be taken. Israelis seem determined to choose eternal conflict over real peace, and real security. It's their choice. I wish them luck. They're gonna need it.

Yeah, just by being there Israel is complicit. They have staked their claim. It is worth mentioning though that the Arab states themselves are in a complex network of alliances and are by no means united. There's long-standing bad blood between Sunnis and Shi'ites and some Arab countries have a shown a willingness to get a little closer with Israel if it means situating themselves a little better against a strong regional enemy like Iran. There are so many other issues out there for the Arabs besides Israel-Palestine.

Judaism is not a race nor are Arabs. It makes no sense to call Israel racist against Arabs. If Israel is apartheid why do Arab Christians do quite well in Israel? — BitconnectCarlos

No, they're ethnicities and racism is a social construct, which is why discrimination of ethnicities is called racism, just like blacks are an ethnicity and when those are discriminated against, we call it racism. A rather silly point to make but I'm happy to explain what's apparent to everybody else. The comment about Arab Christians is rather funny. You really have no idea about the facts on the ground do you? For instance, it's illegal for Christians to preach to Jews (but of course not the other way around). Several benefits are reserved to Jewish Israelis. School funding is limited for schools that aren't state schools or orthodox Jewish schools. Non - Jewish Israelis have their passports issued on different days than Jewish ones, which coincidentally is exactly the type of registration that made murdering Jews in WWII so effective in various European countries and why any modern democracy doesn't register it anymore.

Edit: I forgot, administrative detention of Palestinian Israelis.

You don't care. So why should I? — Foghorn

Lots of projection there. So you're here arguing in bad faith. Good to know. Since you have no argument I guess we're done.

You really have no idea about the facts on the ground do you? For instance, it's illegal for Christians to preach to Jews (but of course not the other way around). — Benkei

Oh tell me about the "facts on the ground" from your intensive, hands on experience in Israel. Show me when this has gone to court. Are Christians being sent to jail or fined for preaching to Jews?

When do Jews ever preach to Christians??? We don't even try to convert.

Lets just start with this one before moving onto the others. Please show me these brave Christian martyrs who have been persecuted by Israel.

Let's just start here.

Are we ever going to talk about Moroccans in the Netherlands? Why is institutional racism so prevalent there? Is Dutch society just rotten to the core? Why is everything so unequal? Let's talk about that next.

Why are you angry again? The facts on the ground can be read about if you take the time and interest to study it. Which I have done. Instead of learning from it, you just lash out because the truth makes you uncomfortable.

What exactly is false about my account?

I'll ignore the comment about the Netherlands as irrelevant as usual. Why don't you start a thread about it?

@Benkei You have any direct contact with civilians in Palestine?