Plato speaks through his characters. — Apollodorus

Right. You seem to understand this. I am glad you cleared up your confusion that you attributed to me.

And he clearly spoke to his pupils like Aristotle. — Apollodorus

But we have not written record of what he might have said.

That is your opinion, that, incidentally, is unsupported by the text. — Apollodorus

Claiming that it is unsupported after I just gave several quotes in support of it shows that you really don't know how to discuss these things, you just ape phrases that wee used against you.

I have stated many times that this "discussion" is going around in circles and is a total waste of time and space. — Apollodorus

And yet, here you still are.

The question/problem is - of course - do the gods love something because it has the attributes of goodness, justness, and divinity or iare such things just, good, and divine because the gods love them. — creativesoul

I think you haven't been following the thread.

Socrates believes (and Euthyphro agrees) that the pious/good/just is pious/good/just because it is loved (sanctioned/approved/commanded) by the Gods.

The only thing that remains to be established is what exactly is the pious/good/just and why the Gods love/sanction/approve/command it.

If you think that you have a better answer, feel free to tell us what it is.

And yet, here you still are — Fooloso4

And yet, so are you.

I think you haven't been following the thread. — Apollodorus

It is you who has not followed the dialogue. Socrates does not believe that the pious/good/just is pious/good/just because it is loved (sanctioned/approved/commanded) by the Gods.

If you were consistent it is pious because it is Pious, good because it is Good, just because it is Just.

Socrates believes (and Euthyphro agrees) that the pious/good/just is pious/good/just because it is loved (sanctioned/approved/commanded) by the Gods. — Apollodorus

bolding above mine

So, piety, goodness, and justice somehow exist, in their entirety, independently of the gods...

:brow:

... which is the problem for divine command theorists, and it is also a problem for anyone who holds belief that god(s) created everything.

Plato speaks through his characters. — Apollodorus

Right. You seem to understand this. — Fooloso4

Of course I do. And since you agree with it, you can't deny it.

And yet, here you still are
— Fooloso4

And yet, so are you. — Apollodorus

Yes. This is a thread that I started and that I and others think is of some value. You said it is a waste of time and space. So why are you still here?

So, piety, goodness, and justice somehow exist, in their entirety, independently of the gods... — creativesoul

Lol Not at all. The fact that something is loved by the Gods does not mean that it is independent of the Gods.

The Gods may perfectly well love what is divine, i.e., themselves.

Unless you think they have reason to hate themselves ....

Of course I do. And since you agree with it, you can't deny it. — Apollodorus

You really have lost track of things. You said I was confusing Socrates and Plato. Any confusion was on your part.

So why are you still here? — Fooloso4

Because people, including yourself, keep asking me questions. And as I am a polite kind of person, I waste my time answering ....

As before. Not interested. Congratulations. You win. Argument by defnitional fiat. Gods are good. Gods love good things. Gods love themselves. Perfect reasoning.

Is that really what you think is going on? No, don't answer. I have no more questions.

It isn't about winning. This isn't a debate or competition. Just a friendly exchange of views.

Is that really what you think is going on? No, don't answer. I have no more questions. — Fooloso4

As a matter of fact, I wasn't going to answer.

However, since you're asking, politeness obliges me to answer.

which is the problem for divine command theorists, and it is also a problem for anyone who holds belief that god(s) created everything. — creativesoul

Yea. The dilemma doesn't exist for a monistic objective idealist, though.

You said it is a waste of time and space. So why are you still here? — Fooloso4

This is what I don't get. If something is not worthy of consideration, silence is the best response.

Socrates does not believe that the pious/good/just is pious/good/just because it is loved (sanctioned/approved/commanded) by the Gods. — Fooloso4

It is clear from the text that what makes the loved by Gods the loved by the Gods is the fact that the Gods love it:

Whatever they (the Gods) all love is holy (9d).

The pious becomes lovable from the fact that it is loved (by the Gods) (11a).

This is what I don't get. If something is not worthy of consideration, silence is the best response. — Valentinus

Like Euthyphro he wants to demonstrate his advanced knowledge of divine things and ends up being laughed at.

Well, I don't want to make a judgment of intentions. I see that you are struggling to decide what to respond to.
I showed my son this thread and he laughed at how your challengers don't actually respond to your comments as given. That is what is funny.

This is part of his knowledge of his ignorance. — Fooloso4

Okay, a knowledge that Euthyphro and his followers lack, full of their own certitude.

Though, possibly, too complex for the intellectually or metaphysically challenged to grasp. — Apollodorus

You are confused and challenged because you are not looking at the right place. You are looking at the tools (concepts) used by Plato, not at what he says with these tools. You are staying at level of words, at the surface therefore.

When the wise points at the stars, you dissect his finger.

Gods love themselves. — Apollodorus

Do they use godes, too? Sorry, couldn't resist...

That just has to be the absolute best one-liner in TPF history.

:blush: Thank you! It's probably not true but you made my day.

Very funny indeed. However, the text says "all the Gods":

"I should say that what all the Gods love is holy" (9e).

"All the Gods" obviously means "the divine", to theion, or God.

I can see no reason why the divine/God would hate itself/himself.

I can see no reason why the divine/God would hate itself/himself. — Apollodorus

Any reason why it wouldn't?

Why would the good hate itself?

Why wouldn't it?

Socrates does not believe that the pious/good/just is pious/good/just because it is loved (sanctioned/approved/commanded) by the Gods.
— Fooloso4

It is clear from the text that what makes the loved by Gods the loved by the Gods is the fact that the Gods love it:

Whatever they (the Gods) all love is holy (9d).

The pious becomes lovable from the fact that it is loved (by the Gods) (11a). — Apollodorus

What should be clear from the text, but is not clear to you, is that Socrates is showing him that these statements go nowhere.

Do you not see how meaningless it is to say that what makes something loved is that it is loved?

It's cool to just follow it around, tho.


A. (I love it) because (it's pious.)

B. (It's pious) because (I love it.)


it's not like equations where it ends up being that I love it because I love it.

With A, I'm passive. I respond to the world as it is.

With B, the world becomes fixed by my love.


And don't we experience the world as both? I must move the bishop diagonally because I'm invested in the game.