There are clearly lots of physical things produced by minds, all those things would obviously cease to exist of minds ceased to exist. — Isaac
Did you mean to say the bolded? Aren't you talking labels here? Is your position then that the sun's existence is dependent on whether minds exist??? — RogueAI
The sun (or the external states which we interpret as 'the sun') are not caused by minds and would continue to exist if minds didn't. — Isaac
you will grant me the existence of people who cannot tell their hallucinations from reality, and this causes them tremendous trouble in life. — RogueAI
One question asks if the sun is mind-independent, the other asks if the physical is mind independent. The sun is not all that is physical. — Isaac
There are many problems in this world. Thankfully most of us can intuitively feel a difference between dreams, or even hallucinations, and reality. There's a sense of matter being there, being hard and heavy. — Olivier5
Yes...ideas. — Isaac
I'm sure you've heard all that and have an explanation you like. — RogueAI
Indeed.
Though as ever, I'm intrigued by what you think an answer to "why is it that brains are conscious and kidneys aren't?" would be like. For me the answer is "that's just the way things played out". I don't expect anything to have a reason to have turned out some way and not another. Why is it that you want a reason? — Isaac
Ah, I see. Useful for explaining something previously unexplained. — Kenosha Kid
We're a curious species. We're usually not content with "that's just how things are". We always want to know why. — RogueAI
I think the idea that mental states = physical states is contradicted by the simple fact that I can have a song playing in my head while there's no music in my skull — RogueAI
Most materialists believe that machines can be conscious. That entails that the pain of stubbing a toe is (or can be reduced to) a bunch of tiny switches turning off and on. That's extremely implausible. — RogueAI
Having a mind and a body is not necessarily a problem. The duality of form and matter is useful, conceptually and practically. So is the particle-wave duality. — Olivier5
which would give you a useful picture of what going on between the ears — Isaac
It seems highly implausible that you actually have a song playing in your head. — Isaac
it tells me specifically about myself from within — Mww
Most of all, my metaphysical paradigm doesn’t need to juxtaposition disabilities or physical damage in justifications for my normative mental goings-on — Mww
It seems highly implausible that you actually have a song playing in your head. — Isaac
No it doesn't. — RogueAI
I think the idea that mental states = physical states is contradicted by the simple fact that I can have a song playing in my head while there's no music in my skull
— RogueAI
It seems highly implausible that you actually have a song playing in your head. There doesn't seem to be be any source of vibration in there sufficient to make the necessary sounds. Far more likely is that you sometimes have an experience similar to that you have when listening to a song. Since both experiences are mental processes it doesn't seem at all a contradiction. — Isaac
I think the mind-body problem is evidence that there's a category error going on, and you can't get the mental from the physical. — RogueAI
I agree. Idealism is counter-intuitive, but it doesn't suffer from a similar problem as the mind-body problem because it supposes that something we already know exists (hallucinations that people can't tell from reality) exists on a massive scale. There needs to be evidence for that, of course, but the claim itself is not susceptible to a category error. I think the mind-body problem is evidence that there's a category error going on, and you can't get the mental from the physical. — RogueAI
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