I don't understand. If...

gender is a social construct. — Bradaction

...then how come...

people don't 'choose' their gender identity. .. you are born like that. — Bradaction

...?

How can one be born as a particular social construct? If a baby is born as a particular social construct then it ceases to be be only by their say that they are he/she/they/xe... If you're claiming that you simply are X, not that you chose to be X, then it must be possible for a third party to judge your gender. Someone could validly disagree with you about it.

How can one be born as a particular social construct? If a baby is born as a particular social construct then it ceases to be be only by their say that they are he/she/they/xe... If you're claiming that you simply are X, not that you chose to be X, then it must be possible for a third party to judge your gender. Someone could validly disagree with you about it. — Isaac

The entire issue simply makes conservative men uncomfortable and is being leveraged politically to divide society. No one cared until they legalized gay marriage and needed a new point of leverage. The whole matter is under false context of causing anyone confusion or the sudden importance of women's sports. You know what they make in the WNBA?

The whole matter is under false context of causing anyone confusion — Cheshire

Well that's reassuring. Pretty damning of my own intellect (or morals, depending on how charitable you're feeling), but at least everyone else is fine.

The pronouns under discussion are mostly used in the third person, or in other words, in conversations between others. I can understand the desire for others to refer to me in a manner of my choosing, but I cannot get past the notion of demanding others conform to my linguistic preferences.

Well that's reassuring. Pretty damning of my own intellect (or morals, depending on how charitable you're feeling), but at least everyone else is fine. — Isaac

I'm saying objectively. In example, the post below. I think some of its BS, but I'll call you what ever you like; Subjectively, you have to consider how long or how some one met you. I know a lesbian named Kim I wouldn't call a woman but doesn't mind she. It takes a minute to learn at first, but an ounce of empathy and you can figure it out.

Nope. Could not make head nor tail of any of that. If English is your second language we could try to draw out what you're trying to say, if not, it's probably too late by now.

Nope. Could not make head nor tail of any of that. If English is your second language we could try to draw out what you're trying to say, if not, it's probably too late by now. — Isaac

Fair enough, I miss identified you as the OP and assumed the perspective was different, but made no indication of it. A lot of it is faking confusion for the sake of controversy. You are genuinely unable to grasp multiple genders across binary sexes?

You are genuinely unable to grasp multiple genders across binary sexes? — Cheshire

No. I'm unable to grasp the the position I quoted in the actual post you seemed to be responding to.

No. I'm unable to grasp the the position I quoted in the actual post you seemed to be responding to. — Isaac

The whole matter is under false context of causing anyone confusion — Cheshire

Yeah, except for the subject who may be themselves experiencing it. The burden on society is negligible relative to the contrived controversy manufactured from conservative social views. It's a position.

The pronouns under discussion are mostly used in the third person, or in other words, in conversations between others. I can understand the desire for others to refer to me in a manner of my choosing, but I cannot get past the notion of demanding others conform to my linguistic preferences. — NOS4A2

I agree with that sentiment, but I can't even understand the desire for others to refer to me in a manner of my choosing. How other's talk about me is none of my business. I think many, if not most people have always had that concern, but it is definitely more prevalent today, with social media and whatnot. For the life of me, I could never understand how on-line bullying was a real thing.

Yeah, except for the subject who may be themselves experiencing it. — Cheshire

To what is 'the subject' the exception? It's as if you're responding to someone else's posts. I haven't said anything to which "...except for the subject who may be themselves experiencing it." would make any grammatical sense as a reply.

The burden on society is negligible relative to the contrived controversy manufactured from conservative social views. — Cheshire

The burden of what? I've not mentioned anything at all which would require society to take any action whatsoever, so I can't understand what burden you might be referring to here.

If you're not going to respond to the actual posts I'm writing, but rather just to the general issue of gendered pronouns, it might make your contributions easier to follow if you didn't use the reply function at the opening of your posts.

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't trying to be evasive, I may have quoted the wrong person initially. I'm not sure exactly what your position on the matter is to be honest.

How other's talk about me is none of my business. — James Riley

I think it's a generational thing. There's a strong trend these days toward individualism and controlling one's identity in society is part of that, the Facebook page, the modified Instagram images....it's all toward creating a society of easily -defined individuals rather than of connections. In my day we got nicknames at school, we didn't ask for them, they were assigned to us. Shortenings of names at work too. We didn't even control our own name, let alone our pronoun, it was a reflection of the connection we had with our social group rather than an avatar of individual identity. Times change I suppose.

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't trying to be evasive, I may have quoted the wrong person initially. I'm not sure exactly what your position on the matter is to be honest. — Cheshire

No problem, I thought something must have got mixed up somewhere along the line. It happens.

There's a strong trend these days toward individualism and controlling one's identity in society is part of that, the Facebook page, the modified Instagram images....it's all toward creating a society of easily -defined individuals rather than of connections. — Isaac

I agree with you. It is strange, though, that a strong trend toward individualism is based upon making sure others perceive us as individuals. Back in the day, a strong trend toward individualism was manifest in not giving a shit what others thought of us. Either that, or standing out in some way, good or bad. Being perceived as an individual was earned, not demanded.

This is a serious issue James Riley, the younger generation is suffering and the Boomers ignore their cries of pain/calls for reform. Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide — K Turner

You have gotten carried away. Going off the deep end doesn't strengthen your case. Disagreeing with screwy ideas is not genocide.

One of the reasons "boomers" ignore you is that we have been around the block a few times and find many of you "gender specialists" inordinately self-involved. "Sexual identity" is a new issue for you, but is not a new issue historically. Lots of people have dealt with it more and less productively over the last century.

There is this mantra that "You can be anything you want to be." President of the United States; as rich as Bill Gates; a self-designed new gender. Dream on.

I once specializing in being a liberated homosexual, politically radical, a rebel. Fine for me, but when I ran it up the flag pole I expected everyone to salute. Guess what: Outside of a small circle of friends there were no salutes. You can be as far out as you want, but there are costs. A lot, maybe most people are going to flat out reject you. Get used to it.

From now on I want you to address me a "@#$#@!#$#". Oh, you don't know how to pronounce that? That is your problem, not mine. )(()((()((()( over there wants you to kneel when you address )(()((()((()(. You don't mind, do you?

How much does the continuous usage of the incorrect pronouns suggest a large amount of transphobia and xenophobia within society, even if the circumstance, is unintentional, but continuous? — Bradaction

This is going to take a long time. People gender each other from an early age and are gendered. It's at a level of learning much like grammar. IOW it is automatic. Like ducking when something is flying at your head. Certainly some people making mistakes may have conscious or unconscious intentions to not do what the other person wants. But in general, it can easily be something that we learned and made automatic. Imagine after driving for 20 years you get in a car where third gear is reached by some very odd movement with the stick. Pretty much everyone is going to mess up their clutches and that's with the threat of death in the air. Gendering habits occur much younger than those habits. They are deeply built in. I think a benefit of the doubt is in order. I mean, express irritation if you feel irritation. I am not saying everyone just has to suck it up. But this is very basic cultural habits and people are going to make repeated mistakes. And some of those people my even be much stronger allies than others who make the shift more easily.

Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide — K Turner

It just isn't.

standing out in some way, good or bad. Being perceived as an individual was earned, not demanded. — James Riley

Yes, I suspect it's just more commercially benficial to give the impression that individuality can be built through social media conducive symbols rather than real world activity. Sometimes the blind actions of commercial interests have odd knock on effects.

It makes me a bit leary, but this is why, I think, there's often an unholy confluence of old school socialists and right-leaning Hoover style rugged-individualists... Neither make good consumers.

It makes me a bit leary, but this is why, I think, there's often an unholy confluence of old school socialists and right-leaning Hoover style rugged-individualists... Neither make good consumers. — Isaac

:blush: :100:

People gender each other from an early age and are gendered. It's at a level of learning much like grammar. — Bylaw

Case in point, when I was at an early age, we grammared gender in that gender wasn't a verb, but a noun.

Gender-Neutrality is the lack of gendered terms, and given that these terms aren't gendered they would not need to be removed. — Bradaction

Communication would be less confusing. The absence of pronouns will increase clarity of expression as clarity will be required for communication. Also, it would reduce the potential for mistakes. For example, "How does the person in a leather coat feel?" would make it clear that the person in a leather coat is the object of the inquiry, not someone nearby. "It's the birthday of the person wearing tweed" would do the same at an office party, as would "Tweed-wearer says loafers-wearer should be fired" when actual names are unknown.

Perhaps over time it will come to be accepted. You're really young. Perhaps if you had a better understanding of what gay people have had to go through to get where they are today, it would give you a better perspective. — T Clark

I think I understand your argument here a lot better given your further explanation in the other thread. but I'll ask to make doubly sure.

Is this argument stating that I believe something should just 'happen', without much of a fight, and that acceptance should be inherent, unlike what gay people had to go through to get their rights recognised?

If so, here is my response.

I truly believe the opposite of this, as nice as it would be for it to just 'happen', and for 'acceptance' to be automatic, I know that this is absurd and impossible. The previous experiences of the Gay and Lesbian communities showcase this beyond a doubt, respect is not inherent, and respect of ideas, even less so. It needs to be earned and fought for.

I believe this, more then anything (that's an exaggeration). So I don't expect, nor desire this to happen overnight, overweek, overyear, overdecade. This post was to gauge and ask for explanation, as to why the world is the way it is. If we don't question then how can we possibly seek to change the social norms?

I understand the Civil Rights movement, and how long it took and how much effort it took and how much muching it took. I willing to do the same for this movement. And besides, the past is also the past, it may influence the future but it does not always become the future, and history doesn't always repeat. Or maybe it does.

Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide. — K Turner

Abusing language doesn't help make your case.

Also, in the 'about' section the person is saying that they are 17 years old, and if this is true, then it may be an extremely difficult time. Of course, this is a philosophy forum and not a psychology self-help resource, but at the same time, I think that some sensitivity is important — Jack Cummins

I disagree. Candour is an important part of philosophy, people's true beliefs and feeling should not be suppressed or diminished simply due to having to remain sensitive. Subjectively, philosophy is the search for truth, in a world filled with lies. As such, offence is to be expected, much in the way theists are to be offended by atheists. What I believe is subjective to me, likewise with all others. Debate is the way in which we collectively pool our ideas with the intention to create a better world.

Debate should not be positive, nor negative, it should be conducted with the neutral aim of providing a greater understanding of the world around us.

Would a genderqueer person be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? It seems to me they wouldn't. — T Clark

I believe the understanding adopted by sociologist is that a person whom identifies as genderqueer may or may not suffer from gender dysphoria

[

@Bradaction

Do you believe that some ppl are born with the soul of a race different from the one they are identified with, just as some are born with one different from the gender they are identified with?

For example, are certain white ppl born with black souls, so to speak, and certain black ppl with white ones, or Asian ones, etc?

Consider Eminem. He took to the world of rap music, dominated by blacks, and rose to the top...but not without a lot of resistance by the black community. This happened before you were born, but I was 40yo, and I remember it well. I was attracted to his music before I even knew he was white (I’m white), and began listening to black radio stations just to hear “Slim Shady”. The black djs didn’t want to play it, ostensibly simply because he was white, but were forced to, because it was the top hit in their genre.

I bring this up because it seems to me that the problems of gender and racial identity are rather similar, yet are approached very differently by society. In particular, I have seen all sorts of “white” ppl in media, entertainment, politics, etc, get into trouble for trying to identify with an ethnic group different from the one they have been labeled with.

But there is no political movement by any group of a certain racial identity to identify themselves with one of another, as there is with LGBTQ, where certain groups with a particular binary DNA assert their right to be identified differently from it. Why do you think this is? Why is there not a “born white, identify as black!” call to arms? Or, “born with eyes slanted, but see straight!”

Interesting question. It brings to mind the people who charge others with appropriation. Whites charged with appropriating black culture, Indian culture, etc. I reckon a group of people of one physical/biological/birth sex could get all verklempt about the pronoun proponents horning in on their territory: "Hey, I'm a woman and I don't like you trying to identify as a woman! Typical man! Trying to take over everything!"

As someone who identifies as non-binary, and understands that Gender is separate to Sex, it is astounding to me how people who claim to be in support of the LGBTQIA+ community continue to misgender and use incorrect pronouns. What is most concerning about this, is that it seems to be a systematic denial and refusal to accept Gender non-conforming people into society. — Bradaction

So this is specifically about those "people who claim to be in support of the LGBTQIA+", but who don't get the pronouns right?