• Agustino
    11.2k
    I suppose that that's a sort of half-joke, so I'll take it half-seriously. They're just doing what comes naturally, which is to use words how they're commonly used in their community. There's nothing stupid about that in and of itself.Sapientia
    Indeed, but their society obscures spiritual aspects from coming under consideration in how words related to sex are used. Us individuals don't just pop into being out of nowhere - we are created and molded by our society, and hence our stupidities, more often than not, end up being the stupidities of our own society. It's just a fact - I mean you went to school right? It was popular for folks to talk about sex, probably much more popular than 1000 ago, and much more openly. Now why was it popular? Wasn't it because the surrounding culture made it "cool" - a sign of prestige? If we had been born and lived 1000 years ago, we wouldn't have encountered this, and it would a priori seem unnatural to us, just as the world 1000 years ago a priori seems unnatural to us today.

    They were right to say that she wasn't a virgin. It seems redundant to criticise their semantics from the outside like you are trying to do. There's no internal inconsistency.Sapientia
    Yes I agree they were right, that's what I'm saying. She was wrong to claim she's a virgin despite doing all those things.
  • S
    11.7k
    ...spiritual aspects...Agustino

    >:O

    Yes I agree they were right, that's what I'm saying. She was wrong to claim she's a virgin despite doing all those things.Agustino

    Oops! Lol. That was a typo! I meant to say that she was right (as was anyone else who used the word in that way) to say that she was a virgin.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Oops! Lol. That was a typo! I meant to say that she was right (as was anyone else who used the word in that way) to say that she was a virgin.Sapientia
    She was right only if by right you only mean using the word as most people use it.
  • S
    11.7k
    She was right only if by right you only mean using the word as most people use it.Agustino

    I mean that she was right in that sense, but also in the sense that I might agree more with their definition than yours.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    5k
    But, I've decided that it's enough of that. No more. Complete mastery over one-self is the goal now.Question

    As long as you are aware that there are no merit badges awarded for denying self pleasure. ;)
  • Michael
    15.3k
    She was right to say that she [was] a virgin.Sapientia

    What does it take to lose one's virginity, then?
  • S
    11.7k
    What does it take to lose one's virginity, then?Michael

    Depends what you mean by "sex" or "virginity". I would've thought that you of all people would agree with that, and not just in relation to sex or its absence.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    Depends what you mean by "sex" or "virginity". I would've thought that you of all people would agree with that, and not just in relation to sex or its absence.Sapientia

    OK, what do most people mean by those terms?
  • S
    11.7k
    OK, what do most people mean by those terms?Michael

    I'm not sure what most people mean by those terms, but I know what is commonly meant by those terms, and I've already made what that is clear in previous comments.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    I'm not sure what most people mean by those terms, but I know what is commonly meant by those terms, and I've already made what that it is clear in previous comments.Sapientia

    You mean "I'd say that 'sex' primarily means sexual intercourse"? What does that involve? A penis penetrating a vagina or anus?
  • S
    11.7k
    You mean "sexual intercourse"? What does that involve? A penis penetrating a vagina or anus?Michael

    Yes, in at least some cases. What are you getting at? Can you cut to the chase?

    I've made clear that I think that one common meaning of "sex" includes penile-vaginal sex and anal sex, but not oral sex. Do you disagree?
  • Michael
    15.3k
    Yes, in at least some cases. What are you getting at? Can you cut to the chase?

    I've made clear that I think that one common meaning of "sex" includes penile-vaginal sex and anal sex, but not oral sex. Do you disagree?
    Sapientia

    Yes, I disagree, as it entails that women can't have sex with each other, and so that all lesbians (who haven't been penetrated by a penis) are virgins.
  • Michael
    15.3k


    d4lxos49t4gp394v.jpg

    Call me "He who Drops the Mic-hael".
  • S
    11.7k
    Yes, I disagree, as the implication is that lesbians can't have sex with each other, and that all lesbians (who haven't been penetrated by a penis) are virgins.Michael

    That doesn't make what I said false, which is that it is a common usage. So you don't disagree with what I said, you just disagree with its use. You've made a kind of use-mention error.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    That doesn't make what I said false, which is that it is a common meaning. So you don't disagree with what I said, you just disagree with its use. You've made a kind of use-mention error.Sapientia

    When you asked "do you disagree" I assumed you meant "do you disagree with this definition", not "do you disagree that this is the definition that many people use".
  • S
    11.7k
    Dayummmm....Agustino

    Call me "He who Drops the Mic-hael".Michael

    A little premature to verbally ejaculate, dontcha think?
  • S
    11.7k
    When you asked "do you disagree" I assumed you meant "do you disagree with this definition", not "do you disagree that this is the definition that many people use".Michael

    I don't care so much about the former. That's why I said that I might agree with it more than Agustino's definition. Both are faulty in some respects. I find it difficult to take someone seriously who keeps using the word "spiritual" to describe sex or who thinks that 50 blowjobs turns into sex, but since only one or two haven't reached that point, they don't count.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    A little premature to verbally ejaculate, dontcha think?Sapientia

    Nope.

    d4lxos49t4gp394v.jpg
  • S
    11.7k
    I was looking for a picture or video clip of someone throwing a mic in someone else's face, but I couldn't really find anything. Although I found this instead, so I consider that a win:

  • BC
    13.5k
    Indeed, but their society obscures spiritual aspects from coming under consideration in how words related to sex are used. Us individuals don't just pop into being out of nowhere - we are created and molded by our society, and hence our stupidities, more often than not, end up being the stupidities of our own society.Agustino

    Since it is the case that we haven't agreed on what might and might not constitute sex, and since it is the case that we haven't agreed on what exactly spirituality is, I don't think a spiritual interpretation of virginity is going to help much.

    Virginity makes some sense in a society where either the woman has some sort of 'property value' or where women have been tasked with maintaining a sentimental notion of purity (which doesn't apply to their potential mates). Virginity does not make much sense where women are free of property value and where sentimental ideas of purity are pretty much history.

    Vaginal sexAgustino

    versus

    masturbationAgustino

    Masters and Johnson were doing laboratory research, and the required instrumentation of measurement may have leveled off the experiences the subjects were having. No one would dispute that really great sex (whatever that might be) is better than humdrum sex (whatever that might be). What M & J were claiming is that the basic physiological response was no different. It's like, good food is better than bad food.

    Psychological satisfaction is more complicated (obviously). The oral sex lady could count herself as a virgin because her psychological investment in both the act and the guy was probably minimal. The energy required to perform various sex acts varies and one will feel more or less exercised when it is completed.

    So, when President William Jefferson Clinton claimed he did not have sex with that woman, he was speaking the truth as far as he was concerned. Ms. Lewinsky apparently thought they had had some sort of sex. "How else could I have a Presidential semen sample in my closet?" she cried.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Virginity makes some sense in a society where either the woman has some sort of 'property value' or where women have been tasked with maintaining a sentimental notion of purity (which doesn't apply to their potential mates). Virginity does not make much sense where women are free of property value and where sentimental ideas of purity are pretty much history.Bitter Crank
    :-} Why do you suppose virginity applies only to women?

    The oral sex lady could count herself as a virgin because her psychological investment in both the act and the guy was probably minimal.Bitter Crank
    I disagree.

    So, when President William Jefferson Clinton claimed he did not have sex with that woman, he was speaking the truth as far as he was concerned. Ms. Lewinsky apparently thought they had had some sort of sex. "How else could I have a Presidential semen sample in my closet?" she cried.Bitter Crank
    >:O >:O
  • Michael
    15.3k
    Why do you suppose virginity applies only to women?Agustino

    The word virgin comes via Old French virgine from the root form of Latin virgo, genitive virgin-is, meaning literally "maiden" or "virgin"—a sexually intact young woman or "sexually inexperienced woman".

    His point is that the notion of virginity was only a relevant notion when we lived in a society where women were treated as property and where "purity" was such a big thing – times when the sexual experience of men wasn't important.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    His point is that the notion of virginity was only a relevant notion when we lived in a society where women were treated as property and where "purity" was such a big thing – times when the sexual experience of men wasn't important.Michael
    LOL - I can't follow that. So what about chastity? Chastity implies virginity prior to marriage. Chastity has frequently been considered a virtue historically. Chastity was certainly not only a female virtue.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    LOL - I can't follow that. So what about chastity? Chastity implies virginity prior to marriage. Chastity has frequently been considered a virtue historically. Chastity was certainly not only a female virtue.Agustino

    I'm pretty sure he was just being pedantic, taking the etymological root of "virgin" as the literal definition.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    Chastity has frequently been considered a virtue historically.Agustino

    Well, savages do have the strangest virtues.
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    Well, savages do have the strangest virtues.Michael
    Actually chastity is precisely one characteristic that is specific of civilisation, not of savagery.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    Actually chastity is precisely one characteristic that is specific of civilisation, not of savagery.Agustino

    How do you delineate the savage from the civilised?
  • Agustino
    11.2k
    How do you delineate the savage from the civilised?Michael
    In terms of their social organisation, and capacity for building a prosperous, expanding civilisation, where culture, learning and virtue flourish. Savages who live in tribes aren't civilised.
  • Michael
    15.3k
    In terms of their social organisation, and capacity for building a prosperous, expanding civilisation, where culture, learning and virtue flourish. Savages who live in tribes aren't civilised.Agustino

    Like in ancient Mesopotamia, the birth of civilisation? And yet you called them savages when I showed you that they practiced same-sex marriage.

    And, also, modern societies are civilised but chastity ain't so much a virtue any more.
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