Incest vs homosexuality

TheHedoMinimalist

One argument that gets made against homosexuality is that there isn’t any meaningful difference between homosexuality and incest such that we are justified in condemning one activity while tolerating the other. That same argument also gets made by people that want incest to be legalized and de-stigmatized. I would like to challenge someone to argue against this assertion. The first difference that people are likely to point out is that incest causes inbreeding and inbreeding causes genetic disorders. I think this argument against incest is analogous to arguing against homosexuality by pointing out that most people in developed countries that have AIDS are homosexual men. For one, homosexuality seems to be a far greater contributor of AIDS transmission than incest is a contributor to genetic disorder rates. In addition, it seems that giving someone AIDS is normally considered to be worse than creating a child with a genetic disorder. So, it’s hard to see how homosexuality fares much better than incest here.

Another difference that people might consider is that incest is more likely to occur between adults and children whereas homosexuality typically occurs between consenting adults. I don't think that claim is correct though. There are lots of men who molest little boys and LGBT advocates normally think it’s outrageous to conflate normal homosexuality with that sort of thing. So, why is conflating 2 adult siblings having a sexual relationship with a father molesting his daughter any better or more reasonable? Another difference that might be considered is that homosexuality is much more common than incest and thus there greater downsides to condemning it. It may be argued that both homosexuality and incest are bad for society, but due to the large number of homosexuals, it is preferable for society to have a more positive opinion of it. I think this line of argument has a lot of unusual implications. For one, it would imply that we should condemn homosexuality if it was as rare as incest. It would also imply that if we ever develop super advanced gene editing technology that we should use this technology to eliminate homosexuality.

Overall, I don’t see why we should treat incest any different than we treat homosexuality. I’m sure a lot of you would disagree and I’m wondering if someone can provide some sort of defense for treating homosexuality differently from incest.

Hanover

If there really are cases of close family members consensually having sex, I don't see a reason to legally regulate it. Typically incest occurs as molestation, so perhaps it's too large a net to illegalize it per se as there might be some honest, loving mother fuckers caught up in the mix who are unnecessarily prosecuted.

If you should arrive home drunk and randy and you and sis start up a flirty little back and forth that ends up with you whaling away atop her, no judgment from me. It's gonna be weird looking across the table eating your Cheerios the next morning, but maybe it was worth it.

Cheshire

That same argument also gets made by people that want incest to be legalized and de-stigmatized. — TheHedoMinimalist

What people where?
They should be treated differently because fools will mistake an aversion to a thing as proof it is the same as another thing. And it isn't.

TheHedoMinimalist

If there really are cases of close family members consensually having sex, I don't see a reason to legally regulate it. Typically incest occurs as molestation, so perhaps it's too large a net to illegalize it per se as there might be some honest, loving mother fuckers caught up in the mix who are unnecessarily prosecuted. — Hanover

Yep, I would say incest laws are pretty redundant if someone is only concerned with underage cases. I don’t understand why we wouldn’t just charge someone that molests his daughter with child molestation(or maybe something like “aggravated child molestation” if you want the punishment to be more severe for incest cases).

Hanover

↪TheHedoMinimalist

"In all but two states (and the special case of Ohio, which "targets only parental figures"),[1] incest is criminalized between consenting adults. In New Jersey and Rhode Island, incest between consenting adults (16 or over for Rhode Island, 18 or over for New Jersey) is not a criminal offense, though marriage is not allowed in either state."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_incest_in_the_United_States#:~:text=In%20New%20Jersey%20and%20Rhode,not%20allowed%20in%20either%20state.&text=Cases%20of%20parent%2Dadult%20child,usually%20uncovered%20by%20another%20parent.

prothero

"In all but two states (and the special case of Ohio, which "targets only parental figures"),[1] incest is criminalized between consenting adults. In New Jersey and Rhode Island, incest between consenting adults (16 or over for Rhode Island, 18 or over for New Jersey) is not a criminal offense, though marriage is not allowed in either state." — Hanover

But look at the varying definitions by state and the varying degrees of punishment or criminality attached. It is not just about genetics (many states include stepchildren or adoptions in the category), it is about family relationships and betrayal of trust or duty.

god must be atheist

↪Hanover

I think the question ought to be rephrased: "Do you prefer homosexuality or else incest, when it comes to your lifestyle choices given only these two? In the state-wide pilot social experiment currently conducted in the states of Rhode Island and Jew Jersey."

baker

as rare as incest — TheHedoMinimalist

Do you have the actual statistics?

What is the frequency of a miscarriage of a pregnancy conceived in an incestuous relationship, in comparison to a non-incestuous one?

If many pregnancies conceived in an incestuous relationship naturally end in miscarriage (due to greater probability of genetic defects), this can make incest look rarer than it actually is.

baker

I don’t understand why we wouldn’t just charge someone that molests his daughter with child molestation(or maybe something like “aggravated child molestation” if you want the punishment to be more severe for incest cases). — TheHedoMinimalist

It seems to be mainly due to respecting the legal history of how an issue has been treated so far in a particular jurisdiction.

In the state-wide pilot social experiment currently conducted in the states of Rhode Island and Jew Jersey." — god must be atheist

Bear in mind that new laws tend to be passed as needed, prompted by actual cases and the political momentum for it at the time, not somehow in the abstract in advance. It can so happen that if there are no visible cases of an issue in a country, the country may have few or loose laws about it. This is how there exist legal loopholes. When people try to exploit them (or have successfully exploited them), then, ideally, the government will take steps to remedy the issue and pass new laws that will close the loophole.

TheMadFool

One argument that gets made against homosexuality is that there isn’t any meaningful difference between homosexuality and incest — TheHedoMinimalist

Incest-Beauty Paradox

A man wants his daughter to be beautiful.

Beauty is what sexually arouses a man.

Ergo,

A man wants his daughter to be sexually attractive.

A man doesn't want to have sex with his daughter.

What could possibly go wrong?

Apollodorus

It's gonna be weird looking across the table eating your Cheerios the next morning, but maybe it was worth it. — Hanover

I think that's an interesting point that also raises the question of "inbreeding" that is often cited as a reason for objecting to incest.

But suppose a person may decide to marry or enter into sexual relations with a close relative that is unlikely to result in children being born, for example, if both partners are of the same sex, beyond a certain age, or otherwise unable or indeed unwilling to conceive or procreate.

Should incest and/or marriage be allowed or disallowed in such cases?

Apollodorus

What could possibly go wrong? — TheMadFool

Are you implying that Ivanka knows something that we don't? :smile:

Trey

This is such a touchy topic that another site banned me for talking about but, but here goes: I don’t feel incest is bad in this age where sex very rarely ends in reproduction (birth control). We gotta abandon the Abrahamic Dogma that makes hedonism “SIN”. Homosexuality doesn’t create babies - hell we don’t need more babies!! We just need to enjoy sex. Now be clear - I view forced sex as assault. And the age of consent is another bag of worms! At what age can a person CONSENT?!

Kenosha Kid

Overall, I don’t see why we should treat incest any different than we treat homosexuality. I’m sure a lot of you would disagree and I’m wondering if someone can provide some sort of defense for treating homosexuality differently from incest. — TheHedoMinimalist

Does homosexuality lead to offspring with genetic disorders, high infant mortality, children with broken immune systems, and weak hearts? If not, then the two are not comparable. Homosexuals do not have to worry about the suffering of their future offspring directly caused by their homosexuality, nor do they or society have to pay the medical fees for mitigating that specific suffering. Incest has been taboo since prehistory, likely not because of an anti-liberal agenda, but because it leads to unhealthy babies.

A man wants his daughter to be beautiful. — TheMadFool

Beauty relies on facial symmetry.

Incest causes high probability of facial assymetry.

The offspring of the man with his daughter is his daughter.

Ergo the man should not mate with his daughter.

baker

Should incest and/or marriage be allowed or disallowed in such cases? — Apollodorus

If a high-profile couple demands it and succeeds, it could possibly become a legal precedent.

baker

Incest has been taboo since prehistory, likely not because of an anti-liberal agenda, but because it leads to unhealthy babies. — Kenosha Kid

But once the unhealthy babies are not an issue, the actual question is, Why rely on legal tradition, why adhere to it?

Kenosha Kid

But once the unhealthy babies are not an issue, the actual question is, Why rely on legal tradition, why adhere to it? — baker

Why are babies not an issue? I guess if you're sterile/barren, but otherwise the probability of pregnancy is always 0 < p < 1.

baker

Why are babies not an issue? — Kenosha Kid

In reference to this:

But suppose a person may decide to marry or enter into sexual relations with a close relative that is unlikely to result in children being born, for example, if both partners are of the same sex, beyond a certain age, or otherwise unable or indeed unwilling to conceive or procreate. — Apollodorus

Suppose close blood relatives are concerned enough about producing defective offspring, so they make a point of not procreating. Why shouldn't they be allowed to marry?

T Clark

I’m sure a lot of you would disagree and I’m wondering if someone can provide some sort of defense for treating homosexuality differently from incest. — TheHedoMinimalist

Checking on the web, the incidence numbers for incidence of incest are all over the place. This is from the "Atlantic."

One in three-to-four girls, and one in five-to-seven boys are sexually abused before they turn 18, an overwhelming incidence of which happens within the family.

If that's true, does it change your questions?

Kenosha Kid

they make a point of not procreating — baker

How? If they're having sex, they're not making a point of not procreating. If they're not having sex, it isn't incest.

T Clark

One good checkpoint for attitudes and laws against incest is cousin marriage. This is a link to the Wikipedia article on cousin marriage. It has a really interesting table of the different laws in different US states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States

T Clark

But suppose a person may decide to marry or enter into sexual relations with a close relative that is unlikely to result in children being born, for example, if both partners are of the same sex, beyond a certain age, or otherwise unable or indeed unwilling to conceive or procreate. — Apollodorus

See the link in my post above. This kind of rationale is used in the cousin marriage laws in some states.

baker

How? If they're having sex, they're not making a point of not procreating. — Kenosha Kid

How? If they are homosexual and having sex, they are making a point of not procreating. If they are heterosexual and having sex, and are taking steps to prevent a pregnancy and plan for an abortion should a pregnancy occur, then they are making a point of not procreating.

If they're not having sex, it isn't incest.

If they are homosexual close blood relatives having sex, is it incest?

T Clark

it is about family relationships and betrayal of trust or duty. — prothero

Whatever the genetic or anthropological reasons for incest taboo, this is the one that matters to me.

Kenosha Kid

If they are heterosexual and having sex, and are taking steps to prevent a pregnancy and plan for an abortion should a pregnancy occur, then they are making a point of not procreating. — baker

If you mean using contraception, then no. There's no contraception that leads to no procreation, only less procreation.

If they are homosexual close blood relatives having sex, is it incest? — baker

The example I gave was sterility, but this compounding of things we historically thought icky is much better. No harm, no foul if it's a case-by-case ethic.

The counter-argument would be that an ethic that allowed for same-sex or other non-reproductive incest would be discriminatory, in which case one still has to choose between personal liberty and not hitting the genetic self-destruct button. Personally I'm fine with non-reproductive incest, which is why I had a vasectomy*.

* Absolutely not true, DO NOT QUOTE THIS! :rofl:

A better question imo is: do we have the right to prohibit incest to avoid infant suffering and genome degradation? If so, do we have a right to take babies off smokers and ban gingers from reproducing?

Apollodorus

Whatever the genetic or anthropological reasons for incest taboo, this is the one that matters to me. — T Clark

Could you explain "matters"? And do you mean you support or oppose the taboo?

T Clark

Could you explain "matters"? And do you mean you support or oppose the taboo? — Apollodorus

To boil it down to fit the context of this discussion, to me it represents the most important difference between the acceptability of incest as opposed to that of homosexuality.

baker

If you mean using contraception, then no. There's no contraception that leads to no procreation, only less procreation. — Kenosha Kid

*lol*
"Hormonal contraceptives are safe and effective." Don't you know you're suposed to chant that mantra?

I had a vasectomy*.

* Absolutely not true, DO NOT QUOTE THIS! :rofl:

By all means, it's the woman who should risk her health and life with hormonal contraceptives and abortions. Because you're so wonderful, so worth dying for.

Way to give "inbred" a whole new meaning!

A better question imo is: do we have the right to prohibit incest to avoid infant suffering and genome degradation? If so, do we have a right to take babies off smokers and ban gingers from reproducing?

Then we're at a much more fundamental question: Do we have the right to prohibit anything?

Down The Rabbit Hole

↪TheHedoMinimalist

↪Kenosha Kid

It may be a struggle to find the data, but I would assume there to be more genetic disorders from non-related couples actively trying for a baby, compared to an equal sample of related couples using protection against pregnancy. If true, unless one is an antinatalist, this would defeat the principle objection against incest?

Kenosha Kid

"Hormonal contraceptives are safe and effective." Don't you know you're suposed to chant that mantra? — baker

But not 100% effective.

By all means, it's the woman who should risk her health and life with hormonal contraceptives and abortions. — baker

Wow! You really proceed with maximal unjustifiable assumptions, don't you. And you just got through saying hormonal contraceptives are safe.

I would assume there to be more genetic disorders from non-related couples actively trying for a baby, compared to an equal sample of related couples using protection against pregnancy. — Down The Rabbit Hole

But those are not directly caused by the peculiar sex act taking place. Genetic disorders resultant from incest are caused specifically by incest, not luck of the draw.

TheMadFool

Are you implying that Ivanka knows something that we don't? :smile: — Apollodorus

Short answer, no!

Long answer, oh fucking no!

:lol:

Incest vs homosexuality

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