Greatest Power: The State, The Church, or The Corporation?

Mikie

The State, the Church, the Corporation

If forced to choose one institution, which would you choose as the most powerful in the world today? (Please see my disclaimer below.)

I'm using "church" to represent religion-as-dogma and the "corporation" as representing business.

My hunch would be that the average person would say the state (government) is the most powerful force, in that it has the most influence over the daily lives of millions of people through its creating and enforcing of laws. Very reasonable.

Others who are perhaps more nuanced (hate to make a value judgment, but there it is) would say the corporation. I'm more sympathetic to this choice, in the sense that the business world has essentially owned the government in most countries, especially the United States. I think most members of the forum wouldn't disagree at the characterization of the US as a plutocracy.

Given the above, it's with some reluctance that I would argue that it's the church, in the sense of dogma, that is the most powerful of forces in today's world. (In as far as this dogma has its roots in philosophy, it is ultimately philosophy that rules.) I have my reasons for this, of course, but rather than present a disquisition I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

[Very important disclaimer: again, I'm well aware this is ultimately a silly question with no definitive answer. It's on par with figuring out which is the most important part of an egg. Regardless, I think it's worth discussing as a path into the more relevant discussions about where to allocate our energies when tackling world problems. So for those who recoil at the simplicity: don't bother. No hard feelings, this thread isn't for you.]

[Edit: Added a poll to this thread.]

frank

A state-church combination is very stable. The church supports the legitimacy of the ruling class, and the king protects the church. This is an old and reliable form of social organization.

You need to stop and think about how stability is managed when there's separation of church and state. Corporations are part of that.

I've been really focused lately on how a biosphere is interconnected. I hate mosquitoes, but it turns out they're a sign of health. Get rid of mosquitoes and other creatures also disappear, like humming birds and toads. Stop and think about what the thing you hate is actually part of.

NOS4A2

↪Xtrix

We have to look to who has the monopoly on violence and coercion. That would be the state in nearly every case. No corporation or church can skim from my wealth or throw me in prison or regulate my activity. It is because they have this power that church and business often seek its favor and influence.

180 Proof

↪Xtrix

Yes, the church – that bottomless well of gullibility, ego-fantasy and cynical conformity the sum effect of which grooms the masses from childhood for compliance with servile political and/or commercial ideologies. Easy comparisons: Scandanavian secularity vs American religiosity vs Chinese neo-communism vs Saudi Arabian / Iranian fundamentalism.

ToothyMaw

No corporation or church can skim from my wealth or throw me in prison or regulate my activity. — NOS4A2

What about censorship on social media? And aren't corporations responsible for the wages they pay their employees? Maybe that isn't "skimming wealth", but corporations can decide whether or not you live in poverty - and many hard workers do merely because of the bottom line.

ToothyMaw

We have to look to who has the monopoly on violence and coercion. — NOS4A2

Then I guess we should tolerate mob justice?

Mikie

↪frank

I don’t disagree, but given the parameters I established I offer two points in response.

1) I’m defining “church” as dogma/ideology/system of beliefs, not as the Roman Catholic church. So while the historical analysis is correct and related, it’s not completely what I mean here.

2) You never quite answered the question.

It is because they have this power that church and business often seek its favor and influence. — NOS4A2

True, but if the state is owned by business, as it is, then it’s business that controls violence — as it basically does, with few exceptions. (As well as the laws that are enforced through violence and imprisonment.)

↪180 Proof

:up:

frank

) I’m defining “church” as dogma/ideology/system of beliefs, not as the Roman Catholic church. — Xtrix

Isn't the state based on an ideology as much as the church? Why define one by its temporal presentation, but not the other?

2) You never quite answered the question. — Xtrix

Right now it's a global super wealthy elite. Obviously they don't bow to any government. They raid corporations indiscriminately, I think.

I guess Wall St has the most power.

NOS4A2

↪ToothyMaw

What about censorship on social media? And aren't corporations responsible for the wages they pay their employees? Maybe that isn't "skimming wealth", but corporations can decide whether or not you live in poverty - and many hard workers do merely because of the bottom line.

But if you don’t like the parameters, you can refuse to accept the terms or move elsewhere. They cannot force you to stay and work, and you are the ultimate arbiter of your employment. The state, on the other hand, particularly the American state, can force you into slavery.

ToothyMaw

But if you don’t like the parameters, you can refuse to accept the terms or move elsewhere. They cannot force you to stay and work, and you are the ultimate arbiter of your employment. — NOS4A2

What if there is no better alternative? What if you have no education or qualifications for anything other than a retail job?

The state, on the other hand, particularly the American state, can force you into slavery. — NOS4A2

Oh sweet Jesus - don't tell me you think forcing doctors to care for people who don't have money is slavery. Who is a slave to the US government?

edit: other than people who lick Biden's boots

ChatteringMonkey

Dogma comes from somewhere, that used to be predominately the church, and to some extend the state. Now in secularized societies it's corporations, via advertising, pop-culture etc... Contra 180proof I would say the masses don't need grooming for compliance with ideologies, that tendency is already there. If you weaken the church, the void gets filled up by corporations, unless you try to fill it up first with something ala Sovjet or CCP propaganda (or US nationalism)... or maybe your can curb that tendency with enough education (Scandinavian countries).

Given the above, I'd say corporations.

Mikie

Isn't the state based on an ideology as much as the church? — frank

Yes, but I’m using “church” as basically a synonym for ideology — or dogma, in any case.

But even if we use religion (say represented by Catholicism), it’s still far more about belief than about creating laws or making money. In that respect, as I’ll argue, it is ultimately the basis for political and corporate decisions.

I guess Wall St has the most power. — frank

:up:

NOS4A2

↪ToothyMaw

What if…?

By slavery I mean the thirteenth amendment of the constitution, which reserved slavery and involuntary servitude for prisoners.

Mikie

Oh sweet Jesus - don't tell me you think forcing doctors to care for people who don't have money is slavery. — ToothyMaw

You’re dealing with someone who voted for and continues to defend Donald Trump, and whose economic beliefs come straight out of Friedman and Ayn Rand. I wouldn’t waste too much time trying to figure anything out.

Mikie

If you weaken the church, the void gets filled up by corporations — ChatteringMonkey

An important point. The void gets filled with varying sects of the church of nihilism: capitalism, scientism, etc. Nietzsche is good on this.

Put another way: what do the corporations fill the void with? What is their underlying belief system?

Mikie

What if there is no better alternative? What if you have no education or qualifications for anything other than a retail job? — ToothyMaw

Tough shit. Then you have the freedom to starve to death. That’s NOS’s ideal world, anyway. Government is the problem, free markets are the solution. It’s done wonders the last 40 years— especially the Friedman Doctrine.

ChatteringMonkey

If you weaken the church, the void gets filled up by corporations
— ChatteringMonkey

An important point. The void gets filled with varying sects of the church of nihilism: capitalism, scientism, etc. Nietzsche is good on this.

Put another way: what do the corporations fill the void with? What is their underlying belief system? — Xtrix

Money, or maybe you could say power/status ultimately, but profit is their way of getting that. They fill the void with whatever stories that make people want to buy their stuff.

ToothyMaw

By slavery I mean the thirteenth amendment of the constitution, which reserved slavery and involuntary servitude for prisoners. — NOS4A2

Then you should care about the incarceration and torture of suspected terrorists without due process.

Trump on torture:

Torture works. OK, folks? You know, I have these guys—”Torture doesn’t work!”—believe me, it works. And waterboarding is your minor form. Some people say it’s not actually torture. Let’s assume it is. But they asked me the question: What do you think of waterboarding? Absolutely fine. But we should go much stronger than waterboarding.

ToothyMaw

↪NOS4A2

I mean, would you like to be detained and water-boarded for being a suspected terrorist? If you don't want the state to have a monopoly on violence or coercion you should want Guantanamo closed down.

ToothyMaw

Tough shit. Then you have the freedom to starve to death. That’s NOS’s ideal world, anyway. Government is the problem, free markets are the solution. It’s done wonders the last 40 years— especially the Friedman Doctrine. — Xtrix

I know five-year-old's with more thought-out worldviews; at least they believe they should share their stickers with people.

NOS4A2

↪ToothyMaw

I do want Guantanamo closed down, the patriot act repealed, the CIA and FBI abolished, along with every other federal agency. What about you?

NOS4A2

↪Xtrix

Tough shit. Then you have the freedom to starve to death. That’s NOS’s ideal world, anyway. Government is the problem, free markets are the solution. It’s done wonders the last 40 years— especially the Friedman Doctrine.

In my ideal world we’d help members of our community instead of delegating that responsibility to the state.

Tom Storm

In my ideal world we’d help members of our community — NOS4A2

That's interesting and a lesser understood part of a libertarians' worldview (if that's what yours is). Do you have a view regarding what help might look like?

ToothyMaw

I do want Guantanamo closed down — NOS4A2

Well, great! Maybe you have a moral compass!

the CIA and FBI abolished, along with every other federal agency. — NOS4A2

No, I do not want to abolish every federal agency, that is crazy talk - even though I consider myself a left-libertarian. Guns are okay, all drugs should be legal, free speech, etc. All of that good stuff.

In my ideal world we’d help members of our community instead of delegating that responsibility to the state. — NOS4A2

Yes, but people, especially the ultra-rich, have demonstrated that they have a willingness to do precisely everything but that. The state obviously needs to take care of people sometimes.

For instance: what about the severely mentally ill? Should we leave them to fend for themselves? Just live off of the pocket change they scrounge off of the pavement?

frank

But even if we use religion (say represented by Catholicism), it’s still far more about belief than about creating laws or making money. In that respect, as I’ll argue, it is ultimately the basis for political and corporate decisions. — Xtrix

Yes. But liberalism is based on a Darwinian outlook, not a religious one. I mean Jesus was very anti-rich-people.

Apollodorus

You need to stop and think about how stability is managed when there's separation of church and state. Corporations are part of that. — frank

I think it is quite funny how liberalism started as a project initiated by the emerging commercial classes for the purpose of restricting the power of king and church and gaining more power for themselves.

The result is that we now seem to have rule by corporations. And as their power increases, the power of the people decreases. With modern methods of mass surveillance, manipulation, and control, it isn't easy to see a way out of it ....

frank

I think it is quite funny how liberalism started as a project initiated by the emerging commercial classes for the purpose of restricting the power of king and church and gaining more power for themselves. — Apollodorus

As usual, you hit the nail on the head.

The result is that we now seem to have rule by corporations. And as their power increases, the power of the people decreases. With modern methods of mass surveillance, manipulation, and control, it isn't easy to see a way out of it .... — Apollodorus

What goes around, comes around.

NOS4A2

↪ToothyMaw

We don’t need the rich when good, compassionate people such as yourself are around. Or do we? At any rate, delegating such a responsibility to a faceless institution full of power-seeking careerists is to refuse to help others.

I don’t think we should leave the mentally ill to fend for themselves. A vast campaign of deinstitutionalization has already helped free many of these individuals from state imprisonment, and it would be in our own best interest to help them.

Maw

Probably the one with the access to the nuclear codes and military

Down The Rabbit Hole

↪Xtrix

The State, the Church, the Corporation

If forced to choose one institution, which would you choose as the most powerful in the world today? — Xtrix

I dislike right wing politics, but this is right:

We have to look to who has the monopoly on violence and coercion. — NOS4A2

The state has the ultimate choice in controlling anything. They can choose to be guided by the corporations, but they can also choose to tax the corporations to help the poor and vulnerable in society, as Jeremy Corbyn believes in, and presumably Bernie Sanders on the other side of the pond.

Daniel

The people is the greatest power.

Greatest Power: The State, The Church, or The Corporation?

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