This — 180 Proof

Shit! :rofl:

I provided the link to the Princeton Press series for those interested. I am interested in authors such as Cicero, Plutarch and Seneca, never having studied such texts at school or University. It seems a gap in my education which modern editions like these might help to fill.

I provided the link to the Princeton Press series for those interested. I am interested in authors such as Cicero, Plutarch and Seneca, never having studied such texts at school or University. It seems a gap in my education which modern editions like these might help to fill. — Wayfarer

We're in your debt! It's not easy to know what to look for but to know where to look, like you do, is taking the notion of search to a whole new level. Kudos, Wayfarer. I'll be keeping an eye out for your particularly informative posts. :up:

:ok:

To be honest the ancient texts I like most are the early Buddhist texts but I’m trying to broaden my base.

The Nag Hammadi Library.

To be honest the ancient texts I like most are the early Buddhist texts but I’m trying to broaden my base. — Wayfarer

Early Buddhist Texts (Wikipedia)

The early suttas also almost always open by introducing the geographical location of the event they depict, including ancient place names, always preceded by the phrase "thus have I heard" (evaṃ me sutaṃ). — Wikipedia

So, are we to infer that the Buddhism predates the written word and it was transmitted orally until India invented a script?

Telephone (game) :point:

None of the following are intended to impart wisdom, but if one is in pursuit of wisdom these books will help with regard to thinking, seeing, evaluating, perspective, self-knowledge, attitude, altitude.

Plato: Republic
Aristotle: Ethics
Ecclesiastes
Maimonides: Guide for the Perplexed
Zhuangzi

So, are we to infer that the Buddhism predates the written word and it was transmitted orally until India invented a script? — TheMadFool

It's not inference, it's a matter of fact. They were aural traditions for centuries, until being codified in various Indic scripts, of which one early extant version is Pali. (Please lay off the idiotic youtube artifacts, they sometimes have their use and I sometimes post them but in this context they might as well be grafitti.)

Please name your top five "ancient wisdom" reads for modern (beginner) philosophers. — 180 Proof

That would depend on which aspect/s of "ancient wisdom" one is interested in.

But I think that the introductory booklets on Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, and The Buddha in the Very Short Introductions series by Oxford University Press would be a good start.

Very Short Introductions - Oxford University Press

Edit. I would strongly advise against reading Maimonides. He probably had no access to Platonic texts and learned about Plato through Arabs like al-Farabi and Ibn Sina. He complained that there are so many parables in Plato's writing one can dispense with it and stick to Aristotle. The fact that he is held in high esteem by the likes of Leo Strauss speaks volumes.

I’ve been under the impression that gangsta cultcha was pop rather than progressive or regarded as dispensing wisdom, though in some part authentically counter-cultural and validly so. — praxis

Yes, counter-cultural or anti-cultural sounds about right. And anything that serves as a substitute for traditional culture qualifies as "progressive" in certain quarters where deconstruction and replacement count as progress.

Please lay off the idiotic youtube artifacts, they sometimes have their use and I sometimes post them but in your hands they might as well be grafitti. — Wayfarer

:lol: Can you be like, "we'll just have to put up with TheMadFool's shitty videos!" Puhleeez!!

It's not inference, it's a matter of fact. They were aural traditions for centuries, until being codified in various Indic scripts, of which one early extant version is Pali — Wayfarer

The Chinese Whisper Problem

The Buddha (bad pronounciation): [blah blah blah] This ire is the cause of suffering.
Eager Disciple (hearing impaired): Yes, yes, desire is the cause of suffering.

:lol:

Yes, counter-cultural or anti-cultural sounds about right. And anything that serves as a substitute for traditional culture qualifies as "progressive" in certain quarters where deconstruction and replacement count as progress. — Apollodorus

You should move to a better quarter.

You mean better than counter-cultural or better than anti-cultural?

Postmodernism announces (loudly and often) that a supposedly neutral, objective rationality is always a construct informed by interests it neither acknowledges nor knows nor can know. — Does Reason Know what it is Missing?

Objectivity may be "honored more in the breach than in the observance". A succinct statement of ancient philosophical wisdom is Socrates' epigram : "know thyself". Which requires enough self-directed insight to "see" your own personal biases and ignorances. Perhaps we could rephrase as : "the fear of self-deception is the beginning of wisdom". :smile:

Please name your top five "ancient wisdom" reads for modern (beginner) philosophers. The Mad Fool and I both could probably use the encouragement. — 180 Proof

Encouragement for what? "Loving life"? Work?

The Nag Hammadi Library. — Noble Dust

Yes. They are literally messages in a bottle. Usually, what gets erased stays that way.

Nag Hammadi Library resource page.

Yes, a good resource. That is where I quote text from.

Seeing Ecclesiastes and Maimonides: Guide for the Perplexed together reminds me that Spinoza tried to be a bridge between the ancient and the modern. The perspective of change happening over generations is a difficult perspective. It has been tried before.

:up:

:roll:

*

I recommend any place that at least knows the meaning of progress, and perhaps on the coast with a temperate climate.

I would strongly advise against reading Maimonides. He probably had no access to Platonic texts and learned about Plato through Arabs like al-Farabi and Ibn Sina. He complained that there are so many parables in Plato's writing one can dispense with it and stick to Aristotle. The fact that he is held in high esteem by the likes of Leo Strauss speaks volumes. — Apollodorus

I am open to arguments for or against this or that point of view. But to propose not reading an author is an odd proposition. How will we know how right you are if we don't try it out for ourselves?

I recall Russell saying in HWP that in Maimonides he found more perplexity than guidance. I think it's very specialised with all the nuances of language and interpretation - written in Arabic but using the Hebrew alphabet, then translated. And also a polemic seeking to reconcile arcane theological terms with recondite philosophical argument. I wouldn't include it among primary sources for material of that era (which was in any case medieval rather than ancient.) I think it's rather too specialised.

The authors I'm really trying to come to terms with are the major Platonist and Neo-platonists.

Proclus's system, like that of the other Neoplatonists, is a combination of Platonic, Aristotelian, and Stoic elements. In its broad outlines, Proclus's system agrees with that of Plotinus with a notable difference: unlike Plotinus, Proclus did not hold that matter was evil, an idea that caused contradictions in the system of Plotinus. However, following Iamblichus, Plutarch of Athens, and his master Syrianus, Proclus presents a much more elaborate universe than Plotinus, subdividing the elements of Plotinus's system into their logically distinct parts, and positing these parts as individual things. This multiplication of entities is balanced by the monism which is common to all Neoplatonists. What this means is that, on the one hand the universe is composed of hierarchically distinct things, but on the other all things are part of a single continuous emanation of power from the One. From this latter perspective, the many distinctions to be found in the universe are a result of the divided perspective of the human soul, which needs to make distinctions in its own thought in order to understand unified realities. The idealist tendency is taken further in John Scotus Eriugena.

And from there became one of the main sources of later German Idealism, according to Dermot Moran. I see that as being more in the mainstream of Western philosophy.

I am open to arguments for or against this or that point of view. But to propose not reading an author is an odd proposition. How will we know how right you are if we don't try it out for ourselves? — Valentinus

I can see your point. However, if some recommend that we read a certain author, others may equally recommend not to read another (or the same) author. This is what book reviews normally do.

Of course, I can't stop people from reading a book if that's what they want to do. In fact, in the case of Maimonides, I think he would probably make interesting reading if you are into medieval Jewish philosophy, for example.

But (unlike Aristotle) Plato's works were not widely available in Islamic Spain, and considering Maimonides' anti-Platonist bias it would be wrong to regard him as a reliable guide in interpreting Plato, as Leo Strauss seems to be doing. More generally, reading Plato through the eyes of medieval Jewish and Arab philosophers whilst dismissing other authors like Plotinus or Proclus - who had direct access to Plato's Greek texts - does not seem to be a particularly scholarly or impartial approach. But this is just my opinion.

Anyone mention Augustine of Hippo yet? He's probably one of the wisest human beings to have ever lived. Augustine's writings will never grow old, and like Plato's, they are very relevant today.

There's something about modernity that is inimical to the traditional idea of wisdom. — Wayfarer

The modern attitude, generally, is that any old knowledge, especially if it has a theological base, has been thoroughly supplanted by modern scientific advancements. So anything old is seen as outdated and incorrect, having been replaced by the new knowledge.

However, wisdom is composed not only of knowledge, but also of experience. And experience is produced from the temporal extension of being. So a large part of wisdom is understanding the principles which have stood the test of time.

To my knowledge, Plato's works were available in Islamic Spain only as partial translations or commentaries in Arabic. So, they would hardly make a reliable source. In contrast, Plotinus, Proclus, and other Greek-speaking authors in the east who had direct access to Plato's original Greek works and had actually studied Greek philosophy under Greek teachers, were in a better position to read and interpret Plato than Maimonides was.

Yes, I did mention Augustine in my recommendations from Oxford University Press' series Very Short Introductions, above. And, of course, in the old days philosophy was a way of life and was about experience, not armchair philosophizing as it is seen today.

Since I asked others, here are my five "ancient wisdom" readings:

• Daodejing, Laozi
• Ping fa, Sunzi
• De Rerum Natura, Lucretius^
• Outlines of Pyrrhonism, Sextus Empiricus
• Enchiridion of Epictetus, ed. Arrian

honorable mention:

• Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers (Book X), Diogenes Laërtius^