I don't want to derail your thread, but exploring that would be a good way to get a grasp of what physicists mean by information. Do you want to go in that direction? — frank

Sure. But I am only vaguely familiar with it, so will be relying on you to explain it.

What are your thoughts, queries, arguments, definitions, and insights? It would be great to have a general understanding of information on this forum. — Pop

Since Claude Shannon formulated his definition of "Information" as an empty mathematical vessel for carrying meaning from one point to another -- specifically over telephone wires -- its practical utility has been exploited in a thousand ways. It has even transformed the discipline of Physics, from manipulating matter (mechanics, Chemistry, atoms) to manipulating abstract Ideas (relativity, statistics, fields). And IT (information technology) has revolutionized both Science and Philosophy.

Formerly, "Information" was simply loosely defined as "mind stuff", and associated with metaphysical Consciousness, Minds, and Souls. It was the intangible (and passive) stuff that life-risking spies could carry in their minds, or on bits of paper, or on magnetic tape. But now it is known to be an active agent in the real physical world. That's why I coined the neologism "EnFormAction" (EFA) to combine its activity (Energy) with its products (Matter & Mind). Plato's "Forms" were merely abstract Ideas (theoretical designs) that could be trans-formed into the en-formed stuff that our physical senses detect. Forms are merely Potential, but en-formed things are Actual (acted upon). As Pop summarized, "every Thing is information". Yet, every Idea about things, or possible things, is also information.

According to Einstein's definition of Energy (E=MC^2), that immaterial power-to-en-form is what gives physical form to the real stuff (matter) that we interact with in the world. In its dynamic/active form, Energy (EFA) is merely invisible & intangible Potential (a possible but not actual thing). But in its stable/passive form, EFA is the tangible massive matter that we know as Reality. With Einstein's equation in mind -- where C is the speed-limit of light -- I like to think of Matter as slowed-down light vibrations, compressed into the sedate wave-forms we know as physical substance. In other words, as mass-less Light decelerates from its max-velocity in a vacuum, it condenses into various forms of massive Matter. This is an oversimplification of course, but useful as a way to understand the relationship between Light (the essence of Energy) and Matter (the substance of Energy).

But, what about Information as the essence of Mind? If it's true, as Pop says, that "information is everything", as a corollary, we could also say that everything is Mind. For some people that notion makes sense. But for others, it violates the basic premise of secular Materialism. That's because it seems to support the ancient worldview of Panpsychism, and even Pantheism. The latter has been explained in the concept that our Real World is actually an idea in the Mind of God (Idealism). So, I think Shannon, as a pragmatic engineer, would be surprised at the novel forms that have evolved from his revival of a old worn-out word -- for the metaphysical contents of human minds -- applied to the mundane physical problem of traffic jams on phone wires. That technical term has subsequently ramified into an all-encompassing concept of both Reality and Ideality. :nerd:


Everything is Information :
Physicist Vlatko Vedral explains to Aleks Krotoski why he believes the fundamental stuff of the universe is information and how he hopes that one day everything will be explained in this way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ2r0zvyoA

Information is Everything :
We are now living in the information age and physicists are now wondering whether the universe must be seen as a kind of super computer or large information system.
https://hagedoorn.org/en/everything-is-information/

Information :
The English word "Information" apparently derives from the Latin stem (information-) of the nominative (informatio): this noun derives from the verb īnfōrmāre (to inform) in the sense of "to give form to the mind",
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information

Panpsychism is the view that mentality is fundamental and ubiquitous in the natural world. The view has a long and venerable history in philosophical traditions of both East and West, and has recently enjoyed a revival in analytic philosophy. For its proponents panpsychism offers an attractive middle way between physicalism on the one hand and dualism on the other.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/

Pantheism :
At its most general, pantheism may be understood positively as the view that God is identical with the cosmos, the view that there exists nothing which is outside of God, or else negatively as the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ― Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species

Note : To enform via direct acts is to create or to organize. To enform via natural laws is self-organization or evolution

concept such as information — Pop

"Information" is anything that helps the mind make its map of the territory.

It's relative to what the mind needs. It has no actual existence.

Sure. But I am only vaguely familiar with it, so will be relying on you to explain it. — Pop

Ok. It will be this coming week. It's the same thing we've been talking about: why a thing is this, and not that. :nerd:

Thanks for the great post. I believe you would say, like the information philosopher, that information can be abstracted from the substance, and this leads to a dualistic understanding. I would say, like Shannon, that the information "always" exists entangled in a substance, and so this leads to a monistic understanding. With a monistic understanding, Panpsychism is the natural conclusion, and the idea that function follows form might to be a way to narrate it.

Ok. It will be this coming week. It's the same thing we've been talking about: why a thing is this, and not that. :nerd: — frank

Awesome!

"Information" is anything that helps the mind make its map of the territory. — hope

I would assume that all thoughts have their neural correlates. So the map of the territory is a physical pattern that exists in a brain. The source of this patterning is an external world. So, the form of an external world causes neural patterning, which becomes our consciousness.

neural correlates — Pop

Correlation is not causation.

While the nitty gritty of it all, including all widely-accepted views, have just been eloquently explained in much detail, perhaps one may begin to ask themselves a few simple questions.

There's a bottle that is, by all widely accepted views green, that happens to sit in a room you've yet to enter. One man informs you the bottle in the room is green. Another tells you it is blue. And still another tells you there is no bottle whatsoever. Are these not all bits of information? When you enter the room and confirm whether said bottle is green, blue, or even existent for that matter, does that change? Why?

Correlation is not causation. — hope

If function follows form, there is a causality at play.
You don't elaborate much so I have to guess what you mean precisely but I think we are roughly on the same page.

If function follows form, there is a causality at play. — Pop

Neither mind nor brain follow each other. They happen at the same time.

When you enter the room and confirm whether said bottle is green, blue, or even existent for that matter, does that change? Why? — Outlander

Experience. We trust in experience above all other information?

Information makes it all possible. — Pop

Notice the similarity between information and god?

Are you are inventing a new theology?

Notice the similarity between information and god?
Are you are inventing a new theology? — Banno

Arguably correcting one.

Notice the similarity between information and god?

Are you are inventing a new theology?
seconds ago — Banno

Ha, Ha. It does seem a little like that. But I am describing something physical.

There's a bottle that is, by all widely accepted views green, that happens to sit in a room you've yet to enter. One man informs you the bottle in the room is green. Another tells you it is blue. And still another tells you there is no bottle whatsoever. Are these not all bits of information? When you enter the room and confirm whether said bottle is green, blue, or even existent for that matter, does that change? Why? — Outlander

Some of it's information about the other room and some is imagined. One or more is inaccurate. When I enter the room I make my own assessment and compare notes. The part that doesn't change probably isn't imaginary.

The simplest is what we call data. The origin of data is information — Cheshire

Yes, Information is something irreducible, and ultimate. Rather godlike, but entirely physical, for a monist at least.

To me it's whatever informs the spin of an entangled particle when another is observed. It travels faster than light so it isn't going through our space.

If function follows form, there is a causality at play.
— Pop

Neither mind nor brain follow each other. They happen at the same time. — hope

I don't think so . I think there is a causal process that makes information integrate that is external to brains, that ultimately crates brains, that is itself a mind. I'm thinking of the anthropic principle - the integrated laws of the universe causing information to integrate.

Pop To me it's whatever informs the spin of entangled particle when another is observed. — Cheshire

Without getting into QM, etc. I think you are agreeing that the integrated laws of nature do that.

But I am describing something physical. — Pop

That makes me nervous. I'm not sure you are.

Information can be thought of as the resolution of uncertainty; it answers the question of "What an entity is" and thus defines both its essence and the nature of its characteristics. — Pop

That is more theology than physics.

causing information to integrate. — Pop

Complexity is eternal, and eternally changing.

Information can be thought of as the resolution of uncertainty; it answers the question of "What an entity is" and thus defines both its essence and the nature of its characteristics.
— Pop

That is more theology than physics. — Banno

That is a quote from Wikipedia. Your argument is with them!

Complexity is eternal, and eternally changing. — hope

But not prior to the big bang. Complexity starts after the big bang.

Complexity starts after the big bang. — Pop

Complexity cannot 'start'.

That is magical thinking, a fantasy. illogical.

Without getting into QM, etc. I think you are agreeing that the integrated laws of nature do that. — Pop

I just know the speed of light is a measure of resistance, so something going faster isn't resisted. Yeah, everything is aware and we're like a node. So, show it beautiful things.

Wikipedia writes about theology, too. Check out the supporting citations for that quote. Very dubious.

But you chose the quote, so presumably you think it has some merit. What I am pointing to is the capacity for this thread to be nonsense disguised as physics.

You're making a fool of yourself. Please continue.

Some of it's information about the other room and some is imagined. One or more is inaccurate. When I enter the room I make my own assessment and compare notes. The part that doesn't change probably isn't imaginary. — Cheshire

But does it have to be imagined? Perhaps the person who describes the bottle in the room as blue did in fact see a blue bottle in the room that was subsequently replaced with the green bottle the first man saw? Perhaps he has some odd eye condition or whatever that made him simply see it as blue. Perhaps when the third man came in a fairy showed up and rendered the bottle invisible leaving him no other choice but to say "there was no bottle in the room"?

Right. So it seems information is not information unless it conforms to an observable and generally accepted consensus, which relies on our own senses or rather trust in them. But it was, everything, even assuming they were complete lies, were equally information until investigated. So does that mean information not personally confirmed are but clues? Lies? Possibilities? Relative?

Meanwhile, you remain a prince and a scholar. By putting down someone who by your own assertion is unintelligent. You poor bastard.

You better cling to your atheism and suckle at its bosom. It's all you'll have left, and even that will be gone when you need it most.

For the record I'm not a fan of Banno either. My point has receded. Is this the short story page?