Blank verse is incredible. The rhythm of words freed from the distraction of rhyme allows the poet to explore overlooked corners of language. — Noble Dust

Poets are clockmakers but their clocks are, let's just say, of a different kind.

Can we receive the message sent to us by Mozart? By the cave painters in Lascaux? By the guys who built fucking Machu Picchu? By the guys who built this 5,000 years ago? — T Clark

We receive each form of art with different senses, and so presumably with different parts of our brains.

Poetry uses words, which is really problematic because it uses the same vehicles we use in our every day conversations, like the one we're having here. So it's not correct to compare poetry to music, cave paintings, or whatever the fuck Machu Picchu is. If you can speak in music or painting right now, do so; I'll concede the point.

I'm a poet.

I'm a poet. — Noble Dust

You know what I'd like to see. Poetry battles like Rap battles unless the former is what the latter is.

Poetry uses words, which is really problematic because it uses the same vehicles we use in our every day conversations, like the one we're having here. So it's not correct to compare poetry to music, cave paintings, or whatever the fuck Machu Picchu is. If you can speak in music or painting right now, do so; and I'll concede the point. — Noble Dust

Disagree strongly. Poetry uses words, but is not like our other uses. I know that because I feel it. Poetry feels like music. It feels like visual art. It goes to the same place inside. Poetry doesn't mean anything the same way art and music don't mean anything. This is Machu Picchu:

What is metaphysics in this context? If the discussion is to be whether poetry have it or not, then we - I - need to know. Anyone? — tim wood

I suppose the metaphysics of poetry is any topic of metaphysical concern that poetry deals with or is implied in its structure, form, or essence.

The most popular view of poetry has always been, as far as I can tell, rhymes, the use of homphones, usually at the end of sentences/phrases but that it seems is incidental to what poetry really is; poetry is about, first and foremost, rhythm, phonic rhythm as it were. Rhythm boils down to time, keeping time to be precise and thus, my intuitive reaction to the metaphysics of poetry is that it (poetry) is about time, and poems are simply linguistic clocks.

Poetry uses words, but is not like our other uses. I know that because I feel it. Poetry feels like music. It feels like visual art. It goes to the same place inside — T Clark

Sure, good poetry makes us feel it in ways that evoke music, visual art, etc. Of course I agree with you there. I also write music (that's my main creative outlet); I get that. The words of good poetry evoke these images. That's not an argument against my argument. Poetry is fated against it's own time because it's language. It will always fade because of it's stuff. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value. But it does mean that there's no "metaphysic" of poetry as such. I'm familiar with Machu Picchu, btw.

A poet is a beautician - enhances beauty and conceals ugliness.
— TheMadFool

You've been reading the wrong poets, mate. — Janus


Why? Show me a right poet and a wrong poet and maybe there's something worth discussing. — TheMadFool

The best poets do not "conceal ugliness" or 'enhance beauty". Life is both ugly and beautiful, both heaven and hell and the good poets tell it like it is.

:fire:

.

A poet is a beautician - enhances beauty and conceals ugliness.
— TheMadFool

You've been reading the wrong poets, mate. — Janus


Why? Show me a right poet and a wrong poet and maybe there's something worth discussing.
— TheMadFool
The best poets do not "conceal ugliness" or 'enhance beauty". Life is both ugly and beautiful, both heaven and hell and the good poets tell it like it is. — Janus

Can you give me an instance of poetry on the ugliness of life? Thanks in advance.

Can you give me an instance of poetry on the ugliness of life? — TheMadFool

I didn't say good poets focus on the ugliness of life; that would be to enhance ugliness and conceal beauty. Good poets neither enhance nor conceal either beauty or ugliness, they reveal both and allow both to stand.

I didn't say good poets focus on the ugliness of life; that would be to enhance ugliness and conceal beauty. Good poets neither enhance nor conceal either beauty or ugliness, they reveal both and allow both to stand. — Janus

Life is both ugly and beautiful, both heaven and hell and the good poets tell it like it is. — Janus

:chin: Give me an example of "life is [both] ugly...good poets tell it like it is"

Blank verse is incredible. The rhythm of words freed from the distraction of rhyme allows the poet to explore overlooked corners of language. — Noble Dust

Thanks.
I learn something new every day. I don't think I ever heard of 'blank verse' but probably met it.

https://literarydevices.net/blank-verse/

***

Give me an example of "life is [both] ugly...good poets tell it like it is" — TheMadFool

One short example from website:

The buds luminous in white sway happily,
and sparkling valleys darkened by angst. — Literary devices: blank verse

Doesn't have to be a 'good poet telling it like it is' - just someone who can show both sides of life experience; the light and dark. You really don't know this ? :roll:

https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/dark/

The Dark - by Carol Ann Duffy

If you think of the dark
as a black park
and the moon as a bounced ball,
then there’s nothing to be frightened of
at all.

(Except for aliens…)

— Poem: Dark

***
From same website:

In the Dark - by Robin Fulton Macpherson

God said: Let the dark be dark.
Let the stars shine properly.
And let darkness with no stars
heal the damage caused by light.

Men said: Let there be light all
night through, where there is no-one
much or no-one at all, let
the gathered haze from street-lamps,
undying brand-names, full-blaze
unpopulated windows
stain the undersides of clouds
even when nights are cloudless.

God said: Light itself needs rest.
Some things are best seen, unseen,
in darkness unhindered by
Great Light. Me, for example.

The messages of art, including poetry, are not received by interpreting it. They are received by experiencing it. — T Clark

I think both.
Here's an example of how to understand a poem and its message.

Assissi - by Norman MacCaig

The dwarf with his hands on backwards
sat, slumped like a half-filled sack
on tiny twisted legs from which
sawdust might run,
outside the three tiers of churches built
in honour of St Francis, brother
of the poor, talker with birds, over whom
he had the advantage
of not being dead yet.

A priest explained
how clever it was of Giotto
to make his frescoes tell stories
that would reveal to the illiterate the goodness
of God and the suffering
of His Son. I understood
the explanation and
the cleverness.

A rush of tourists, clucking contentedly,
fluttered after him as he scattered
the grain of the Word. It was they who had passed
the ruined temple outside, whose eyes
wept pus, whose back was higher
than his head, whose lopsided mouth
said Grazie in a voice as sweet
as a child’s when she speaks to her mother
or a bird’s when it spoke
to St Francis.

***

ASSISI by Norman McCaig
Resource by Jane Cooper.

Getting In

Before you read the poem, think about these questions:
1. If you see someone begging in a public place, what do you feel?
2. And, if you see someone begging in a public place, what do you do? Give them
money? Buy them food? Stop to talk to them? Walk away? Something else?

Meeting The Text

You are about to read the Norman MacCaig poem ‘Assisi’. As you read it for the first
time, work out the answers to these questions.
1. Where does the speaker seem to be in this poem? Be as exact as you can.
2. Which two different individual people does he notice? What are these people
doing?
3. Which group of people does he notice? What are these people doing — Poem: Assissi by Norman MacCaig - Teaching notes

From a 10 page pdf.
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Assisi-by-Norman-MacCaig-Teaching-Notes.pdf?

thank you for this. It is much needed by myself: lover of poetry, poetical philistine.

↪Gus Lamarch thank you for this. It is much needed by myself: lover of poetry, poetical philistine. — Michael Zwingli

Yes. I appreciate this thread too.
However, I have read the OP a few times now. I still don't fully understand. So unable to respond properly to the conclusion:

The conclusion reached by Ismail, and by other poets and philosophers, was that:

"Poetry comprises only an authentic metaphysics, from the moment on that its analysis is done in such a way that the linguistic poetic basis is also its development and conclusion."

Therefore, poetic metaphysics is something that can only be conceived through the incomplete visualization - not absolute but subjective - of concepts. — Gus Lamarch

@Gus Lamarch I don't know if that has been explained elsewhere - I kinda just jumped in :yikes:

Apologies if I've taken the thread off-topic. However, it is fascinating to consider.

Metaphysical poets
A group of 17th-century poets whose works are marked by philosophical exploration, colloquial diction, ingenious conceits, irony, and metrically flexible lines. Topics of interest often included love, religion, and morality, which the metaphysical poets considered through unusual comparisons, frequently employing unexpected similes and metaphors in displays of wit. The inclusion of contemporary scientific advancements were also typical. John Donne is the foremost figure, along with George Herbert, Andrew Marvell, Abraham Cowley, Richard Crashaw, and Henry Vaughan. For more on metaphysical poetry, see Stephen Burt’s poem guide on John Donne's “The Sun Rising.” — Poetry foundation: Glossary of terms

The word ‘Metaphysical Poetry’ is a philosophical concept used in literature where poets portray the things/ideas that are beyond the depiction of physical existence. Etymologically, there is a combination of two words ‘meta’ and ‘physical in word “metaphysical”.’ The first word “Meta” means beyond. So metaphysical means beyond physical, beyond the normal and ordinary. The meanings are clear here that it deals with the objects/ideas that are beyond the existence of this physical world. Let us look at the origin of word metaphysical poetry in more detail. — What is Metaphysical Poetry

You know what I'd like to see. Poetry battles like Rap battles unless the former is what the latter is.
8h — TheMadFool

These exist. They are called "poetry slams", to be found within most conurbations of any significant size. Generally, most of the poetry is original, and poor (a subjective estimation, if there ever was one), but occasionally something inspiring happens.

Indeed, "rap" can be viewed as a type of poetry, albeit exceedingly simple in it's metrical schemata, and exceedingly monotonous by endless repetition. In this, rap has always seemed to myself the application of poetic device to the shamanistic enterprise, the latter-day repetitious use of rhyme and meter in the pursuit of ecstatic states of mind. Rap music is only "good" for those seeking such a state. For others, such as myself, it's essential qualities remain ineffective.

yeah, I think that Gus is using the term "metaphysics" in a differing sense than that applied to the historical phenomenon.

yeah, I think that Gus is using the term "metaphysics" in a differing sense than that applied to the historical phenomenon. — Michael Zwingli

How so ? And do you understand the OP's Conclusion ?

what I mean by that, is that the OP is not restricting the term "metaphysics"/"metaphysical" to a school or period of English poetry, as Sam Johnson did. Rather, he appears to be using those terms to describe the commonalities of all poerty, the purpose and intent behind the "poetic enterprise". In this, Gus seems to be suggesting that the impulse behind the poetic undertaking is the elucidation of fundamental truths of the human experience of life. I tend to agree with this estimation. Indeed, this in my opinion, is what distinguishes "poetry" from "rap music", to which I alluded above. While the purpose of poetical enterprise seems to be the elucidation of evasive, fundamental truth regarding subjective human experience, the purpose of rap music seems to myself, to be in line with the shamanistic enterprise: in particular, the use of poetic devices, particularly rhyme and meter, in the production of altered states of mind: ecstatic, sexual, and often antagonistic. What I am especially gaining from the comments that I have read here, is a greater appreciation for the merits of blank verse, which I must admit to having ever derided as being "lazy poetry" compared to lyric verse (thank you for your comments regarding that, Noble Dust). The comments thus far have altered my conception of differing expressions of the poetic undertaking. If this thread continues long enough, I may even be able to gain an appreciation for "free verse" (poetry without rhyme or meter).

what I mean by that, is that the OP is not restricting the term "metaphysics"/"metaphysical" to a school or period of English poetry, as Sam Johnson did — Michael Zwingli

Ah. I see you edited your original post to include the word 'poetic' so that now makes sense.

...terms to describe the commonalities of all poerty, the purpose and intent behind the "poetic enterprise" — Michael Zwingli

Well, what else would be behind the 'poetic enterprise' but purpose and intent of the poet ?
Expressing a message relating to the human condition - both subjective and objective. A personal view and expression of what is perceived. And sharing that view, that sense, with others.

"Poetry comprises only an authentic metaphysics, from the moment on that its analysis is done in such a way that the linguistic poetic basis is also its development and conclusion."

Therefore, poetic metaphysics is something that can only be conceived through the incomplete visualization - not absolute but subjective - of concepts. — Gus Lamarch

I doubt whether poetry has ever been about an 'absolute' visualisation.
What is meant by an 'authentic metaphysics' ?

What is meant by an 'authentic' metaphysics' ? — Amity

That is a bit semantically obscure. Gus himself would have to address that question.

In this, Gus seems to be suggesting that the impulse behind the poetic undertaking is the elucidation of fundamental truths of the human experience of life. — Michael Zwingli

I didn't see this before.
Perhaps that is the case.
However, it seems too technical and theoretical re 'fundamental truths'.
It is a bit more or less than that, I think...

Are you still editing your post ? I think I'll leave it there...
Until @Gus Lamarch responds.

I didn't see this before.
Perhaps that is the case.
However, it seems too technical and theoretical re 'fundamental truths'. — Amity

Of course, I am assuming that by Gus' use of the term "metaphysics" he means the search for first principles/fundamental truths (ens in quantum ens).

Poetry is fated against it's own time because it's language. It will always fade because of it's stuff. — Noble Dust

My only real experience with poetry from a significantly foreign time and place is the Tao Te Ching. I've received much more from that than I ever have from all but a very few modern poets who write in English. The minute I first read it it grabbed me. Since then, I've read parts of at least 15 translations. Each helps me build up a more complete experience.

But it does mean that there's no "metaphysic" of poetry as such. — Noble Dust

I'll ask you the same question I asked @Gus Lamarch, do music and visual art have a metaphysics? If so, please explain.

I'm familiar with Machu Picchu, btw. — Noble Dust

I assumed you would be, but then you indicated you didn't. [joke]I thought maybe you were joking, but then I remembered you are from Ohio. [/joke]

These exist. They are called "poetry slams", to be found within most conurbations of any significant size. Generally, most of the poetry is original, and poor (a subjective estimation, if there ever was one), but occasionally something inspiring happens.

Indeed, "rap" can be viewed as a type of poetry, albeit exceedingly simple in it's metrical schemata, and exceedingly monotonous by endless repetition. In this, rap has always seemed to myself the application of poetic device to the shamanistic enterprise, the latter-day repetitious use of rhyme and meter in the pursuit of ecstatic states of mind. Rap music is only "good" for those seeking such a state. For others, such as myself, it's essential qualities remain ineffective. — Michael Zwingli

"Poetry slams"! Noted for future reference. Thanks!

I am assuming that by Gus' use of the term "metaphysics" he means the search for first principles/fundamental truths (ens in quantum ens). — Michael Zwingli

Ah, OK.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metaphysics

But that isn't what 'the impulse behind the poetic undertaking' - in general - is all about, is it ?
It's not necessarily related to a study of. or a search for. a supersensual realm or of phenomena which transcend the physical world.

However, it might be and I think I might be making progress.
Again, from wiki.
'supersensual '(comparative more supersensual, superlative most supersensual)

1.Beyond the range of what is perceptible by the senses; not belonging to the experienceable physical world.
Heaven is a supersensual realm.

2. Provoking or exciting an extremely strong response in the senses; sensual.

***

So, looking at these quotes:

Core explicit concept = I am that which brings me joy and sorrow
Core implicit concept = I am that which brings me joy and sorrow as I am a servant of God
Substance = Faith — Gus Lamarch

Core explicit concept = I am the heir of holy glories long past
Core implicit concept = I am the heir of holy glories long past as I am the heir of my own glories
Substance = Heredity/Glory — Gus Lamarch

Realize that even mystical Sufi poetry is sometimes incapable of sufficiently deconstructing the meaning of poetry so that its metaphysical essence is fully understood - — Gus Lamarch

So, poetry itself is supposed to be able to deconstruct its meaning to enable an understanding of its 'metaphysical essence' ? Or a 'substance' such as 'Faith' or 'Heredity/Glory' ?
What is 'substantial', in 'metaphysical essence', about 'Faith' and how can it be said that:

Poetry comprises only an authentic metaphysics, from the moment on that its analysis is done in such a way that the linguistic poetic basis is also its development and conclusion — Gus Lamarch

What on earth does this mean ? :chin:

In Broken Images

He is quick, thinking in clear images;
I am slow, thinking in broken images.

He becomes dull, trusting to his clear images;
I become sharp, mistrusting my broken images.

Trusting his images, he assumes their relevance;
Mistrusting my images, I question their relevance.

Assuming their relevance, he assumes the fact;
Questioning their relevance, I question the fact.

When the fact fails him, he questions his senses;
When the fact fails me, I approve my senses.

He continues quick and dull in his clear images;
I continue slow and sharp in my broken images.

He in a new confusion of his understanding;
I in a new understanding of my confusion. — Robert Graves

I'd say Graves' "The White Goddess" gives a fairly thorough philosophy of poetry from metaphysics to politics.

I don't really write poetry but do play around writing with a magnetic poetry kit at times and I find that it is a way of accessing what Jung describes as 'active imagination'. I believe that poetry writing, like some forms of art is a way of accessing deeper levels of the subconscious.
I used to illustrate a poetry magazine and did discuss poetry with many of the people who contributed to it and it did appear that some of them saw it in this way.

During that time, I got to know a fairly well known poet in England, UA Fanthorpe, who has died since, and, it was during the phase where I was really reading Immanuel Kant, and she said to me that she just couldn't see why I needed to and I think that she was dismissive of the larger framework of metaphysics. She was a Quaker and she took me to a meeting. What was interesting is that people sat in silence, only speaking when inspired to do so. The idea of uttering words from within a background of silence seems important.

Recently, I was discussing philosophy with a man working in a bookshop and he was telling me that he wrote poetry and how he saw the writing of poetry as being influenced by his own understanding of Wittgenstein on language. It does appear that playing with language is central to poetry, and, perhaps, it is about the juxtaposition of ideas, as well as images, which makes it such a creative process.