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TheHedoMinimalist
460In the US and most other western nations, adultery has been decriminalized and you would probably be viewed as some kind of a far right reactionary or a religious extremist if you were to argue that it should be made illegal again. By contrast, the Possession of Drugs, the buying and selling of sex, selling someone euthanasia drugs so they can peacefully commit suicide, and having child porn on your computer is usually still illegal in most countries. I think that there is actually a stronger case to be made for making adultery illegal than the cases for making the other stuff I mentioned illegal. That isn’t to say that I think adultery should be illegal rather I think we either have to make the stuff I mentioned legal or make adultery illegal if we want our laws to make sense.
I’ll start by mentioning that I define adultery to be a situation where a member of a romantic couple in a closed relationship, whether married or unmarried, decides to have sexual contact with another person without consent from their partner. When understood in this manner, it seems that adultery produces obvious harm to lots of people and it’s something that I think even significantly affects the everyday life of your average person. I think that Drugs, Prostitution, Assisted Suicide, and Child Porn produce more speculative types of harms that only affect a very small or fairly small group of people. I bet a lot of people on this forum have been cheated on and probably have been greatly affected by the event. By contrast, I don’t think even a single member of this forum ever seriously impacted by someone else choosing to buy or sell sex or someone choosing to watch child porn. There might be a few people here that were impacted by people doing drugs and people committing suicide but I think that’s still more rare than someone being affected by their SO cheating on them.
In addition, I think there is a much stronger case to be made for people having a right to die or a right to do drugs than there is for people having a right to violate an agreement that they made with their SO not have sexual contact with another person. After all, if you want to sleep with other people than why don’t you either breakup or divorce your partner or get into an open relationship or fwb relationship or just stay single? If one has agreed to fidelity than I don’t see how one can complain about there being legal consequences for violating an agreement that you made in the first place.
Another thing that I think makes the case for making adultery illegal more compelling is that a lack of legal recourse often leads disgruntled individuals to take matters in their own hands and engage in vigilante justice. I think a big reason why we created laws in the first place is to curtail vigilante justice and the chaos that it brings so we can live in a peaceful society. Adultery has quite a high level of vengefulness that comes with it. The likelihood of any given partner taking revenge against their partner after they catch them cheating is actually fairly high it seems. I hear about it all the time. We often even encourage such vengefulness. By contrast, I think few people are motivated to take revenge against drug users or prostitution clients or prostitutes or even someone who provided euthanasia drugs to their loved ones or someone that watches child porn. This is because those activities either do not concern them or they might feel like revenge isn’t appropriate even if it does concern them. You do have vigilantes that go after pedophiles but I think they overwhelmingly prefer to target child rapists or molesters instead of just some guy watching child porn.
I encourage you all to write objections to my OP if you have any. I tried to keep it short so I didn’t mention everything to be said about the topic. On a final note, I want to mention that I think there is a rather bad history regarding adultery being illegal where women were charged with it a lot more often than men were. I don’t think this is how adultery laws should work and laws in general are only as good as how they are implemented. Men should really be charged more often with adultery since I think they are more likely to cheat. Though, I think when women cheat it can sometimes be really catastrophic because of the possibility of paternity fraud but I think there should be a separate law for that anyways. -
T Clark
13.9khaving child porn on your computer is usually still illegal in most countries. — TheHedoMinimalist
Visual child pornography - videos or photographs - requires that children engage in sex acts. It is not likely that any child would do that unless coerced. In most places, children do not have the ability to give consent. Even if there is no legal restriction, it's just plain wrong. Children are among the most vulnerable of us. They deserve to be protected. Child pornography cannot be made without abusing and exploiting children.
It is my understanding that written or drawn child pornography is not illegal in most places. That would make sense given the rationale described above. -
InPitzotl
880
Could you actually put some numbers on this for me, even if it's a guesstimate? ...also, are you going for raw counts here, or severity of the impacts?There might be a few people here that were impacted by people doing drugs and people committing suicide but I think that’s still more rare than someone being affected by their SO cheating on them. — TheHedoMinimalist -
TheHedoMinimalist
460Visual child pornography - videos or photographs - requires that children engage in sex acts. It is not likely that any child would do that unless coerced. In most places, children do not have the ability to give consent. Even if there is no legal restriction, it's just plain wrong. Children are among the most vulnerable of us. They deserve to be protected. Child pornography cannot be made without abusing and exploiting children. — T Clark
People that possess or watch child porn of any kind do not necessarily play a causal role in the creation of that content though. It is only if they produce it or distribute it or pay for it then I think one can argue that they have actually seriously contributed to the abuse of children. Otherwise, I think that content would exist even if one particular person who watches child porn didn’t watch child porn. In contrast, if one partner gets caught cheating on their romantic partner then there doesn’t seem to be any question that this partner would have prevented the suffering that his infidelity has caused to his partner if he decided not to cheat. So, I think the causal relationship to harm is more clear and obvious here. -
TheHedoMinimalist
460
You have a good point here. The severity of having family members do drugs or commit suicide might be more severe. Though, there is another factor that I considered here as well and that was whether or not a person has a right to do drugs or commit suicide. I think it’s more reasonable to assert that a person has a right to do drugs or commit suicide because they never really made an agreement not to do those things while a cheater has made an agreement not to cheat by choosing to have a monogamous committed relationship. Also, in regards to assisted suicide, I think it’s also more controversial to blame a person that provides euthanasia drugs to help a person commit suicide for that suicide as this person only played a partial causal role here. I think the person that actually went through with the suicide is most appropriate person to blame if someone really insisted that suicide is blameworthy. I think this kind of factor is ultimately my most important point here as I think we can accept that drugs and suicide produce a comparably bad outcome to adultery but there is at least more reasons to defend the actions of drug users and suicide assistants. -
T Clark
13.9kPeople that possess or watch child porn of any kind do not necessarily play a causal role in the creation of that content though. It is only if they produce it or distribute it or pay for it then I think one can argue that they have actually seriously contributed to the abuse of children. Otherwise, I think that content would exist even if one particular person who watches child porn didn’t watch child porn. — TheHedoMinimalist
If no one had child pornography on their computers, child pornography would come to an end for practical purposes. Any transaction with a financial component contributes to the production of the pornography and, therefore, the abuse of children. How would someone get the pornography if there were not a financial transaction of some sort? -
180 Proof
15.3k
Consider this legal rule or principle: A free state (i.e. open society) shall not prohibit victimless consensual conduct except in cases where such conduct is materially supported by prohibited criminal acts or enterprises. When applied to OP
e.g. categories
• adultery – victimless ...
• use, possession or sale^ of drugs – victimless ...
• sale^ of euthanizing drugs – victimless ...
• sale^ of consensual sex acts – victimless ...
• (making / possession / distribution / sale^ of) child pornography – material support by victimization e.g. child sexual abuse, molestation or worse ...
^(sale includes both ends of transaction) -
tim wood
9.3kAdultery vs Drugs, Prostitution, Assisted Suicide and Child Pornography
Are you so blind to the difference between adultery and these other things you think they should be classed together as collectively either all criminal or all legal? I suggest as an exercise you write down exactly what these things severally are and what each entails. And adultery between unmarried persons? That is not even a thing. Perhaps make it all illegal and permit bounty payments to persons who report other persons? Question: are you from Texas? -
Banno
25kYep; the OP is rigged. The pretence of even-handedness is belied by the content.
Is @TheHedoMinimalist a priest? -
180 Proof
15.3kDo you really think drugs are criminalized to "protect" rather than produce (e.g. Nixon's "war on drugs") potential victims? :roll: The opioid epidemic of the last quarter century was mostly created with prescription drugs. Decriminalize and medicalize abuse, not criminalize (in order to gin-up the private prison mills with nonviolent offenders who are mostly urban and nonwhite).
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180 Proof
15.3kOn topic. Victimless? Legally, my friend, not morally. Addicts self-harm willingly to begin with and only are victims when at the mercy of street dealers because medical insurance doesn't usually cover drug treatment or rehab. Drug prohibition is a remedy (racket) much more costly and wasteful of human lives than the problem of recreational use or addiction. For instance, US forensic studies as well as EU public health policies have shown this for decades.
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tim wood
9.3k
Addicts don't commit crimes because of their addictions? I yield to my friend on most matters of sense, but the idea that addiction is victimless, except in some narrow sense that I don't know, seems absurd. In any case, even under a successful medical regime, there is still the expense we all bear, and to that extent, all are victims.Victimless? Legally, my friend, not morally. — 180 Proof -
TheHedoMinimalist
460How would someone get the pornography if there were not a financial transaction of some sort? — T Clark
Well, one could scam or hack someone that has child porn. But, most porn is free on the Internet right now because it is funded by scam advertising. I don’t know if that’s a thing for child porn as well but if it is then I don’t think that a person who downloads child porn and doesn’t fall for scam advertisement would be doing anything to help the creators of child porn profit. So, I’m not seeing how they actually would play a causal role in creating the content. Another non-financial way that someone might get child porn is if it is free distributed by a pedophile that wants to help other pedophiles out. There are pro-pedophilia political advocacy groups out there such as the North American Man/Boy Love Association. It wouldn’t surprise me if they like to freely hand out child porn to their members or supporters. -
TheHedoMinimalist
460
I don’t think that adultery is victimless. I think it obviously harms the person who gets cheated on and it causes them a great deal of emotional distress. I don’t think any of those activities are completely victimless though. Drugs and Suicide seem to harm the family members of the person that engages in them. Prostitution could enable adultery and that could harm the spouse of the prostitution client. -
InPitzotl
880
Well I wasn't going for a point; I was just trying to wrap my head around the metric being used. I get that monogamous relationships involve an agreement; but broken agreements are not the only moral considerations. I'm not sure I agree that if Bob pinky promises to buy Jane ice cream next week if Jane buys him some this week but doesn't, that Bob in breaking this promise is more in the wrong than if he stole ice cream from Jane.
So I'm not buying the agreement versus none aspect plays a real role here. Death and exploitation for example are big deals; we don't need broken agreements to make them so. -
TheHedoMinimalist
460I get that monogamous relationships involve an agreement; but broken agreements are not the only moral considerations. I'm not sure I agree that if Bob pinky promises to buy Jane ice cream next week if Jane buys him some this week, that Bob in violating this promise is more in the wrong than if he stole ice cream from Jane. — InPitzotl
I agree that there being an agreement is not the only moral consideration. I think that cheating is quite harmful to people and I think that harm cannot be excused because you made an agreement not to cause that harm. -
T Clark
13.9kWell, one could scam or hack someone that has child porn. But, most porn is free on the Internet right now because it is funded by scam advertising. I don’t know if that’s a thing for child porn as well but if it is then I don’t think that a person who downloads child porn and doesn’t fall for scam advertisement would be doing anything to help the creators of child porn profit. — TheHedoMinimalist
I'm embarrassed to even have to make this argument. Web pages usually get paid by advertisers based on how many people click on their web pages. If you go to a porn website, you are contributing financially to the site's owner. You are helping to make it financially worthwhile for people to sexually abuse children.
Another non-financial way that someone might get child porn is if it is free distributed by a pedophile that wants to help other pedophiles out. — TheHedoMinimalist
So, someone sexually abuses a child and makes a film of it. Then he says "Hey, THM, would you like a copy of the video?" You say "sure" and download and watch it. Is it your position that you do not share any responsibility for the abuse of that child? -
InPitzotl
880
I'm not talking about excusing the harm; I'm talking about comparing it to harms that do not involve agreement. It's breaking an agreement to cheat in a monogamous relationship, but it's not breaking an agreement to take photos of a child in a shower without their knowledge and share it online. We can't use the fact of agreement versus not to compare the latter to the former (I mean we can, but it doesn't seem to properly compare using this metric).I agree that there being an agreement is not the only moral consideration. I think that cheating is quite harmful to people and I think that harm cannot be excused because you made an agreement not to cause that harm. — TheHedoMinimalist
FYI, this is just an example of agreement breaking versus exploitation. Also, judging from the topic, this appears to be the point as I understand it... to compare cheating to drug use/prostitution/suicide/child pornography. -
180 Proof
15.3kYou're conflating legal and moral claims. The topic at issue concerns legal prohibitions, not moral blame. Unless I misread the OP, you're now moving the goalposts.
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TheHedoMinimalist
460Are you so blind to the difference between adultery and these other things you think they should be classed together as collectively either all criminal or all legal? — tim wood
I did not list all the differences between these things in the OP because I wasn’t looking to write an essay on the topic lol. I gave you 4 paragraphs to work with in my OP. I’d be surprised if you actually read the whole thing much less agree to read a much longer analysis that I might have on the topic. Personally, I think a good OP is one that gives a very basic and rudimentary version of an argument or critique and then allows people that want to respond to the OP to contribute further. It’s supposed to promote conversation and not bog people down reading your OP. So, I want to pass the question off to you. What do you think is the difference between adultery and the other things that I have mentioned? You don’t have to give me a full list but it would help if you can provide a notable example or something.
And adultery between unmarried persons? That is not even a thing. Perhaps make it all illegal and permit bounty payments to persons who report other persons? — tim wood
By adultery, I meant cheating in general. I think it matters much if it occurs between a married or unmarried couple. Yes, we can do the bounty payments though I think police can just investigate suspicions just as they would with any other crime. -
TheHedoMinimalist
460It's breaking an agreement to cheat in a monogamous relationship, but it's not breaking an agreement to take photos of a child in a shower without their knowledge and share it online. We can't use the fact of agreement versus not to compare the latter to the former (I mean we can, but it doesn't seem to properly compare using this metric).
FYI, this is just an example of agreement breaking versus exploitation. Also, judging from the topic, this appears to be the point as I understand it... to compare cheating to drug use/prostitution/suicide/child pornography. — InPitzotl
I want to clarify that I was specifically talking about the possession of child porn as opposed to the production of child porn. I agree that taking a video of a child taking a shower is worse than adultery. I just don’t think that having a copy of that video of your computer is worse than adultery. I think there is a quite big difference between producing child porn and simply watching it. -
TheHedoMinimalist
460I'm embarrassed to even have to make this argument. Web pages usually get paid by advertisers based on how many people click on their web pages. If you go to a porn website, you are contributing financially to the site's owner. You are helping to make it financially worthwhile for people to sexually abuse children. — T Clark
Ok, you have a point. The average person who watches child porn might give a small amount of profit to the producer. I still think that cheating causes way more harm though. I know countless of people that have been cheated on and it causes quite a great deal of emotional devastation. It might not be as much emotional devastation as what child abuse causes but I think you should consider that the harm produced by cheating is solely caused by the cheater. In contrast, a single person that consumes child porn produces a very minuscule percentage of cause of the child being abused. The producer and distributor of that content is the primary party responsible for the abuse and the audience of the porn only contributes in a minuscule way unless you add them all up as a collective.
So, someone sexually abuses a child and makes a film of it. Then he says "Hey, THM, would you like a copy of the video?" You say "sure" and download and watch it. Is it your position that you do not share any responsibility for the abuse of that child? — T Clark
If someone doesn’t play a causal role in the creation of the video and the video would have existed even if that person was never interested in child porn then I don’t understand how it would make sense to say that this person is responsible for abusing a child that would have been abused regardlessly. I guess you can argue that there’s some probability that the person who made the video specifically made it for that person but that’s kinda speculative. I think it really comes down to the disgust that people have towards pedophiles and I understand. They are pretty disgusting people. It’s like a person that likes to eat his own feces or a person that fantasizes about torturing animals. There’s just something gross about it.
Nonetheless, I would appreciate if you can provide me with an argument for why you do think that watching child porn that you got for free still makes someone somehow responsible for the abuse if the abuse would taken place regardless. I think we normally wouldn’t say that someone is responsible if the issue was less emotionally charged than child porn. For example, suppose that someone had robbed a jewelry store a long time ago and there were a few pieces of jewelry that they wanted to give me as a present. If jewelry store is already out of business and the jewelry can longer be returned then it seems that it would be perfectly acceptable for me to take the stolen jewelry even if I knew they were stolen. Just as you cannot take back the jewelry to a store that no longer exists, you also cannot take back the child abuse that might have occurred in the past. So, what is the difference between those cases then? -
TheHedoMinimalist
460You're conflating legal and moral claims. The topic at issue concerns legal prohibitions, not moral blame. — 180 Proof
I’m not sure if you are responding to my OP or to my previous reply to your comment. It would be helpful if you can quote the passage in question -
InPitzotl
880
But if you're going to use this argument:I want to clarify that I was specifically talking about the possession of child porn as opposed to the production of child porn. — TheHedoMinimalist
...then possession could enable production and that could harm the child being exploited, and:Prostitution could enable adultery and that could harm the spouse of the prostitution client. — TheHedoMinimalist
...that is worse than adultery.I agree that taking a video of a child taking a shower is worse than adultery. — TheHedoMinimalist
Well here, the analog would be to prostitution; though, more specifically, in this case we've qualified this to the level of possession of child pornography specifically made via exploitation of children, versus just generic prostitution, so this analogy isn't quite analogous. To make it so, we should qualify the prostitution... something along the lines of, prostitution specifically where the prostitute knowingly caters to a person involved in a monogamous relationship. That analog being made, given that exploitation is worse than adultery, presumably possession of such child pornography should be worse than prostitution.I just don’t think that having a copy of that video of your computer is worse than adultery. — TheHedoMinimalist
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