How is the distance traveled by light in 1/299 792 458 of a second not the distance between two points?
— Luke

The "distance traveled by light in 1/299 792 458 of a second" is a metre, and "the distance between two points" could be any distance. — Metaphysician Undercover

I asked how a metre is not the distance between two points.
I did not ask how the distance between two points is not a metre.
Obviously the distance between two points “could be any distance” (including a metre).
That does not explain how a metre is not the distance between two points.

I'm beginning to see that you and I have completely different ideas as to what constitutes a "conscious judgement". — Metaphysician Undercover

Thanks for the reply. Yes, what you term "conscious judgement" I would term "conscious discernment". To me a discernment can be automatic from the pov of consciousness whereas a judgment is an act of judging, which in turn is the process of forming an opinion, which takes time to come to a conclusion. But there is no fixed set of rules for use of linguistic expressions in cases such as this. Yes, I think more intelligent lesser animals can make conscious judgments as I've just described the term, and, more so, that all animals can make discernments. A favorite example of mine: ameba (which are far simpler than animals) can discern predators from prey - but in my lexicon I wouldn't say that ameba can make judgments about what is predator and what is prey.

So if time did have a start, then the perspective which places the future as before the past is the true perspective because there was necessarily a future before there was any past. — Metaphysician Undercover

But was there a future before there was any present? Personally, I find that whether time had a start is unknowable in principle. Still, I think I can understand what you're expressing. If so, I find that there is in this statement an equivocation between that which is physical and that which is, for lack of better words, metaphysical. For instance, an ultimate final cause can only be metaphysical, and, when hypothesizing the reality of such, here we can simplistically express that such predates all that physically is, including all physical past. That said, I continue to maintain the mainstream view that the physical future can only occur after the physical past.

Those examples, time slowing down, and time speeding up, are really more evidence that we do not experience time. If we do not pay attention to the clock we quickly lose track of how much time has passed. Then when we try to make the judgement as to how much time has passed, simply by referring to what we remember as having happened, we are very wrong. Gotta go---where has all the time gone? — Metaphysician Undercover

I can remember being bored out of my wits while in after-school detention without being allowed to look at any clock, and that one hour going by very, very slowly for me. But I'll drop the subject.

I asked how a metre is not the distance between two points.
I did not ask how the distance between two points is not a metre.
Obviously the distance between two points “could be any distance” (including a metre).
That does not explain how a metre is not the distance between two points. — Luke

No, actually you asked "how is the distance traveled by light in 1/299 792 458 of a second not the distance between two points".

Anyway, the answer to your question of how a metre is not the distance between two points is very simple. I gave the definition of a "metre", and it does not mention "the distance between two points", or anything about points. And, in no way is "the distance between two points" implied by that definition I gave. Therefore it is very clear that "metre" means something other than "the distance between two points", and a metre is not the distance between two points.

For some reason you seem to believe that the definition of "metre" implies "the distance between two points". As I've been telling you though, this belief is only supported by a category mistake. But if you're really insistent in your belief, and not ready to face your category mistake, then I think the onus is on you, to demonstrate your logic. Show me why you believe that "metre" implies "the distance between two points". Then I think I will be able to pinpoint, and show to you, the precise location of your category mistake. I think maybe there are two category mistakes in your reasoning, so lay it out for me to see. I've already told you why a metre is not the distance between two points, now it's your turn to tell me why you think it is.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, what you term "conscious judgement" I would term "conscious discernment". To me a discernment can be automatic from the pov of consciousness whereas a judgment is an act of judging, which in turn is the process of forming an opinion, which takes time to come to a conclusion. But there is no fixed set of rules for use of linguistic expressions in cases such as this. Yes, I think more intelligent lesser animals can make conscious judgments as I've just described the term, and, more so, that all animals can make discernments. A favorite example of mine: ameba (which are far simpler than animals) can discern predators from prey - but in my lexicon I wouldn't say that ameba can make judgments about what is predator and what is prey. — javra

I've considered this issue many times before, because I would question whether an habitual act is a conscious act. It appears to be automatic. In the case of habit, there seems to often be a conscious decision, which sets in motion many subservient automatic, habitual actions. So if I decide to walk to the store for example, that is a conscious decision, but then my feet moving, and opening the door etc., are all automatic.

However, it may not be possible to class my examples of holding up a number of fingers, and an object and asking what colour it is, as automatic, or habitual. This is because the reply cannot be known in advance. In the case of habit, the required action is known in advance, and I believe that this is what facilitates the habit's expression as automatic. The anticipation has been subrogated from conscious anticipation to subconscious anticipation. In other words, the habitual action remains ready to kick in when called upon. In the case of my examples, the reply to the question cannot be known in advance, so the anticipation must be right there at the conscious level. The conscious mind remains at the ready, to make a decision when called upon This is why I classed it as a conscious judgement. It's just an easy decision, and made quickly because the conscious mind is prepared in anticipation. We are trained as children to make these decisions quickly, with the use of flash cards and things like that. It is a useful trait, because in many situations, such as dangerous ones, the ability to make quick decisions and not get all flustered is important.

A favorite example of mine: ameba (which are far simpler than animals) can discern predators from prey - but in my lexicon I wouldn't say that ameba can make judgments about what is predator and what is prey. — javra

Obviously we need more distinctions then simply conscious judgements and non-conscious discernments, because we have to account for all sorts of different habits, both innate and learned. I think you would agree that there is a big difference between the response to a flash card, and the response to the tap on your knee when the doctor tests your reflexes. And as well, a big difference again between the reflex of your knee, and the behaviour of the ameba.

I believe that the difference lies in the mode of anticipation. I think that the different systems of living beings have built into them different anticipatory mechanisms. Scientific theories and principles, being validated by observation, describe the anticipatory mechanisms as response mechanisms, being unable to observe anticipation. So science doesn't really get to the true nature of these systems as fundamentally anticipatory

That said, I continue to maintain the mainstream view that the physical future can only occur after the physical past. — javra

I think you ought to consider that there is no such thing as "the physical future". Physics is based in observation, and all observation is of things which are in the past. I know you disagree and say that observations are of things at the present. Nevertheless, everything observed is in the past by the time the observation is made, so physics concerns things which are all in the past. We make predictions about the future, but these are supported by the continuity of time at the present, as I explained already. This continuity is very real or else the predictions would fail, but as I also explained, it is not necessary. Because of this, we can say that it is not necessary that anything will continue being in the future, as it has in the past, although we observe that things do. And if such continuity is not necessary, then it is impossible that any physical thing could be existing in the future because it is possible that any physical thing could cease being at any moment of the present. Therefore no moment of the future coud have any physical things within them.

From this perspective, physical things are coming into being, being recreated, at every moment of the present, from a future which has no physical things. Our perspective is somewhere in the middle of this becoming, we see it as things happening, objects moving and changing. So we do not see the part in front of us, furthest in the future, where the objects are coming from nothing physical, nor the part behind us, furthest in the past, where the objects become entirely static.

I asked how a metre is not the distance between two points.
— Luke

No, actually you asked "how is the distance traveled by light in 1/299 792 458 of a second not the distance between two points". — Metaphysician Undercover

The "distance traveled by light in 1/299 792 458 of a second" is a metre, — Metaphysician Undercover

What’s the difference?

I gave the definition of a "metre", and it does not mention "the distance between two points", or anything about points. And, in no way is "the distance between two points" implied by that definition I gave. — Metaphysician Undercover

“Traveled” implies having gone from point A to point B.

However, it may not be possible to class my examples of holding up a number of fingers, and an object and asking what colour it is, as automatic, or habitual. — Metaphysician Undercover

Think of the movie "Rain Man", a movie based on real cases of autistic savants. The guy could instantly visually discern complex numbers. Though I'm no savant, when you hold up two fingers, I don't need to count them analytically to discern they are two rather than one or three. I discern, hence know, this instantly. Same with discerning yellow from red. It's automatic. Placing what one discerns into language on occasion does require conscious deliberation that may not take very long at all. But the discernment can very well occur innately as that which one experiences in manners devoid of conscious thoughts regarding what is.

Obviously we need more distinctions then simply conscious judgements and non-conscious discernments, because we have to account for all sorts of different habits, both innate and learned. — Metaphysician Undercover

We conceive of things differently. What I directly observe as a first person perspective I consciously discern instantaneously (relative to the conscious experience) on most occasions. It's only when there are uncertainties of what it is I am observing that I then analyze alternatives so as to arrive at a conclusion - or else change my focus. These uncertainties are most often emotive, stemming from the subconscious. But my apprehension of these uncertainties as a first person perspective is a conscious experience.

I don't assume any division between consciousness and sub/unconsciousness as though they were two separate entities. Rather consciousness to me is again a unified plurality of subconscious agencies that interacts with, among other things, subconscious agencies it is not momentarily unified with. One's conscience and one's emotions that seek to influence one's behaviors (e.g. pangs of anger, or envy, or romantic attraction, etc., which one as a consciousness is antagonistic to) are two examples of such subconscious agencies of one's total psyche. Lots to explain here, but to keep things relatively simple, one's conscious experiences are perpetually constructed from, so to speak, one's subconscious activities of mind. I can infer that my subconscious mind might make deliberations whose concluding verdicts are then kicked up to the level of consciousness, but at the level of consciousness what I experience most of the time are instantaneous (conscious, rather than non-conscious) discernments. These conscious discernments are of course greatly influenced by past experiences, from memories that can be consciously recalled to habits of behavior to associations regarding pleasure and pain in relation to certain stimuli, and so forth. But there are mostly held subconsciously. Nevertheless, consciously they manifest automatically as part of the very process of consciously experiencing.

I think you would agree that there is a big difference between the response to a flash card, and the response to the tap on your knee when the doctor tests your reflexes. And as well, a big difference again between the reflex of your knee, and the behaviour of the ameba.

I believe that the difference lies in the mode of anticipation. I think that the different systems of living beings have built into them different anticipatory mechanisms. — Metaphysician Undercover

Here's what I find wondrous about ameba: they need to successfully anticipate the behaviors of their prey - and this differently from how they successfully anticipate the behaviors of their predators - if they are to live. So I can't place the total organism of an ameba as having less complex anticipatory mechanisms that the knee jerk you refer to.

That said, I continue to maintain the mainstream view that the physical future can only occur after the physical past. — javra

I think you ought to consider that there is no such thing as "the physical future". — Metaphysician Undercover

I don't assume the block cosmos of eternalism. I so far give my ontological beliefs the label of presentism, for lack of a better term. But the details are complex (e.g., laconically, and for all intended purposes, the past is yet static due to causal reasons that are conjoined into the realities of the present - and it is remembered as having been physical, hence "the physical past"), and, besides, I did say I'd drop the subject of time.

That said, although we'd both agree that there currently is no physical future, would we nevertheless agree that there will be a future physical present as a consequence of what occurs in the present? If so, as shorthand, I termed this future physical present the physical future.

Restating my affirmation to be more in line with my own presentist beliefs: What will physically be can only occur after what once physically was.

“Traveled” implies having gone from point A to point B. — Luke

No, "traveled" does not imply points. A "point" is a non-dimensional precise location which has no real corresponding place in the world that we travel in. That is your category error., points are theoretical only. This mistake is significant in our discussion of duration. If time passage is continuous, then there are no points within any duration, which would separate one particular duration from another, and assuming that there are points within that medium would only lead to problems like Zeno's paradoxes.

But this does not prevent us from talking about distinct durations in time. We just need to bare in mind that any beginning or end is theoretical only, if time is understood as continuous, so any proposed duration cannot be mapped into the real world in any precise way. That's why I objected to you asking me about what point does the present begin and end.

Same with discerning yellow from red. It's automatic. — javra

I would not call this automatic (though it seems to be) for the reasons I explained. I wouldn't even say it's obtained the status of "habitual", for the reasons I gave. I think there is a type of anticipation which differs

edit: Sorry premature posting, will finish later.

As I said, answering flash cards and such things requires rapid response, which is specific to the particular situation, when the required response was completely unknown until that time. That's why I don't categorize it as automatic or habitual. If however, it is the case that acquiring the capacity to make such a rapid response requires being subjected to the same flash cards, or colours, a numbers of times, so that the person gets familiarized with that particular response to that particular question, then I think it might be habitual.

So I can't place the total organism of an ameba as having less complex anticipatory mechanisms that the knee jerk you refer to. — javra

I wouldn't necessarily say that the ameba's anticipatory mechanisms are' "less complex". In fact, with anticipation, it appears to me like the less complex is the more highly developed. This is because, with rapid discernment, as we've been discussing, the simpler it is, the faster it is. This actually may be what differentiates higher levels of consciousness from lower levels, that the process of discernment, gets simpler and simpler. So when you talk about a conscious judgement requiring a deliberation period, this is really a sign of weakness in that consciousness.

Consider what conscious judgement requires. First, we need to suspend the habitual, the automatic, to free ourselves from that influence of such causal mechanisms. In a general sense, this is what we call "will power", it enables us to resist the temptation of following subconscious inclinations. Then, the conscious mind is free to consider options. However, we ought to also consider that the conscious mind itself will add another layer of habitual, or automatic responses to deal with simple problems which do not require extended deliberation, like learning the flash cards. And there might be many layers like this within a living being.

This scenario would create multiple levels with the stop (will power) required at each level to allow discernment which is not causal in the determinist sense. This would be cumbersome and time consuming, so I think that the conscious mind must have the capacity to bypass multiple levels, and place the stop at the bottom of the chain of causation. This would allow the conscious mind to avoid the complex causal structure, allowing its habits, automatic response to take precedence when required, and also forced deliberation if required.

So in general, what I'm suggesting is that the subconscious level is complex, created with many levels of stops (inherent will power), which is required to allow the being to act in a way which is not causally determined. Then the conscious mind short circuits this whole complex system, implanting itself as close to the bottom of the causal chain as possible, rerouting the activity directly to the top, when it deems necessary. In this way it has found a way to simplify the complex anticipatory system which was required to be complex in the first place to avoid costly mistakes.

I don't assume the block cosmos of eternalism. I so far give my ontological beliefs the label of presentism, for lack of a better term. But the details are complex (e.g., laconically, and for all intended purposes, the past is yet static due to causal reasons that are conjoined into the realities of the present - and it is remembered as having been physical, hence "the physical past"), and, besides, I did say I'd drop the subject of time. — javra

The difficult thing, is that if the present is active, and the past is static, how can we account for a transition between these two? This is the issue which has tied Luke up now, he asked me at what point does the present end and the past start, or something like that, and I said that to talk about "points" here does not make sense. This is why I suggested that further and further into the past there is something like slowing down, until we get to what we call the beginning of time, when things would have been static. So I see the past as the end of motion, and facing the future, we see that motion begins in the future. Our perspective is in the middle somewhere.

That said, although we'd both agree that there currently is no physical future, would we nevertheless agree that there will be a future physical present as a consequence of what occurs in the present? If so, as shorthand, I termed this future physical present the physical future. — javra

No, I wouldn't agree with this, as I explained, I see reason to remove the necessity here. The entire future is possibility, so there is nothing necessary which will come to be at a future present. Even the future present is not necessary, being contingent on the passing of time.. What occurs at the present, we say is a consequence of what has occurred in the past, but this is just the result of our faulty, backward way of understanding causation. The real cause of everything we experience is the passing of time. and we know of nothing which necessitates this. This is why the true cause is always in the future from us, as I described. The passing of time requires future, and the past is a consequence, the effect of time passing. Until we understand and grasp what necessitates the passing of time, we cannot assume that it is necessary.