Right, good one! :smile:Hence, the idea that anywhere you look you find existence — Derrick Huesits
OK, I see what do you mean by "all directions".if you had the power of infinite travel you would still perpetually find existence hence the comment "in all directions." — Derrick Huesits
Good point!the part it seems most people here struggle to grasp is the argument isn't purely physical, it is meant to be a metaphysical argument — Derrick Huesits
Wow, very interesting position!It is OK for the universe to be finite as long as there is a greater existence within which it dwells and permeates it. — Derrick Huesits
Yes. This is much better! :smile:We start with the Eternal component--all time--and work our way from there. — Derrick Huesits
Certainly. A good point too!You can't say "there was a time when there was nothing." That, simply, wasn't a time. — Derrick Huesits
-things are separated by things which are not of the same type, so the only thing that could separate existence itself would be nonexistence which cannot exist, thus there must be one undivided existence — Derrick Huesits
-this undivided existence must carry all the attributes labeled above. These attributes, when defined as being all-encompassing, define all the omni's associated with God: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. And perpetual change through creativity: omnificent. — Derrick Huesits
if God is "in" those things he is finite. Perhaps a better phrase is permeate, expand across, or even say those things exist within him. Either way, for the argument to work he would have to be the greatest existence with no limit. — Derrick Huestis
Non-existence can't exist — Derrick Huesits
I fail to see logical linkage between those attributes, "defined as all-encompassing" and the undivided existence. Where does this inference come from? — Corvus
This was a pleasant exchange! :smile: — Alkis Piskas
The unborn future is inherent in the past,
Its ‘will be’ is real, with no unreal contrast class,
As there’s no opposite to existence—no Nil;
It’s not just that future is going to exist.
The present ‘now’ undergoes an updating,
In a fleeting swoosh that passes it away,
For the ‘now’ fades, consumed, as future becomes,
Yet, what will become past can’t just non-exist. — PoeticUniverse
I still think there needs to be some work into the possibility of time being eternal and linear all-in-one. — Derrick Huestis
For example, whether or not our universe would be made up of anti-matter doesn't seem determined, but once it was established to be matter there was no going back, and this is what makes up the whole universe today. — Derrick Huestis
Undivided existence would have the attribute of "all encompassing" among other things. Perhaps a fun mind game here would be to talk about holes in the fabric of space--something some scientists have proposed as a hypothesis. A hole in space would have no space, so it would be a hole 0 units wide by 0 units tall. Similarly, a "break" in time would encompass no time, so it would be a break of 0 seconds and no fraction. — Derrick Huestis
These attributes, when defined as being all-encompassing, define all the omni's associated with God: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. And perpetual change through creativity: omnificent.
-add to this the fact that it must encompass all time: eternal, and you get all the labels attributed to God
-thus, the notion of God can be grasped from a purely logical standpoint. — Derrick Huesits
↪TheMadFool
I hastily summarized for you while telling you to go back and read past arguments. If you want to argue this, go read them so I'm not forever repeating myself. — Derrick Huestis
Shouldn't the space inside a totally sealed cube, container or ball be regarded as divided (separated) space from the outer space? — Corvus
Omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are only meaningful real attributes, if a subject with such attributes demonstrates omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience in action in front of us any time when asked. — Corvus
Omnipresence is really meaningful when the subject is visible and contactable whenever required — Corvus
omnipotence doing and manifesting the right things (divine beings cannot perform bad things by definition?) — Corvus
omniscience telling us what is right from wrong, good from bad, and all the controversial topics such as being able to answer how the universe had been created, if it had, what happen to living beings when dead etc. — Corvus
knowing what is going on everywhere all at once. — Derrick Huestis
When the subject has not been coming forward to show it for thousands of years, and when it is impossible to locate for any ordinary living being, a subject who are with the attributes no matter how hard looking and searching every corner of the world for thousands of years, then should we not conclude that there is no such a being with such attributes existing? — Corvus
The Great Scientist Deity sits back in his plush chair to watch this long great adventure movie or soap opera that He's never seen before… — PoeticUniverse
Scientist deity to some, teacher deity to others — Derrick Huestis
The omniabsent God"! Even if taken as a joke, it says really a lot, doesn't it? — Alkis Piskas
I'm taking it that 'God' is timeless/changeless, aka eternal, absolute, fundamental, 'IS' and thus a 'God' operating in time would be a changing 'God'. — PoeticUniverse
Human nature must be imperfect. — PoeticUniverse
Can a God who encompasses all time be timeless? Or encompass all change and be changeless? — Derrick Huestis
They can. But you can't imagine because you are bound. — VincePee
Perhaps I should give an analogy: — Derrick Huestis
It says that God is not interfering with human affairs. It says that God created Man and left him to chance. It says that the "humanized God" (God with a human-like face) that man has created does not actually exist (hence "absent"). It says that this God has nothing to do with a Supreme Being that governs the whole Universe and not the Earth alone (in which God seems to rule according the egocentric Man and his tales).The omniabsent God"! Even if taken as a joke, it says really a lot, doesn't it?
— Alkis Piskas
What does it say? That He is just absent and lets us go our way? — VincePee
Analogies don't work wrt to gods. — VincePee
It says that God is not interfering with human affairs. — Alkis Piskas
If the cube moves, then the space inside the cube moves also, thus it is not technically the same space. It is the same amount of space, yes, but not the same space technically speaking. For example, if that cube is in New York, it is a space in New York. If in Boston, then a space in Boston, etc. And, if we simply chose to demolish the cube, the same space still exists, just now without the cube, it can't be demolished with the cube... — Derrick Huestis
This is the definition of magic. For those who believe the greater existence has free will and can choose to completely ignore you if it chooses, then the way to go about this is prayer which may or may not be answered. — Derrick Huestis
Omnipresence is really meaningful when the subject is visible and contactable whenever required
— Corvus
You can only see what is finite and exists separate from you, so whatever is truly omnipresent extends everywhere so you could never go outside it and never see or contact it externally, everything must occur within it. — Derrick Huestis
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