Of course not. The Greek gods were once a fact. Not anymore!

Shitty shitty BANG BANG! — Nosferatu

Of course Shitty shitty BANG BANG! Is that not the overarching ethos of the philosophy forum dot com?

But the Greek gods are in fact, still a fact. It is just that we know much less about them today. All knowledge about them, not belief but knowledge, which includes the negative into which us moderns categorize the Greek gods, is fact. We must have a criterion for knowledge, and criterion is what separates knowledge from belief and gives us fact.

For example Zeus is real to me, not as a bearded dude on the throne of mount Olympus, but as a really cool character in the Greek pantheon, and isva metaphor for many things in real life. But fuck metaphors ya know.

It gets tricky because criterion then becomes subject to belief. So it is very easy to dismiss certain categories of fact because we can always relegate a category of fact to a belief by referring to belief in its criterion.

So... A fact is only true when embedded in a frame. Gods frames are absent now. Xenophanes assured that. The MFer... — Nosferatu

Ok, you said it better

But then fact fights back by declaring all frames to be facts in themselves, and now we are discovering frames as facts. I think Nietzsche called this perspectivism...the M fer

Not for me. My gods reside outside the universe. Maybe they can interact with us by means of hidden variables (a fact!), but I would be very disappointed if they did! — Nosferatu

So then, do you consider facts, rather, is your critetion of strict fact that it be verifiable in the known universe, preferably via empirical means?

This reminds me of Pickering: "Constructing Quarks". — Nosferatu

Thanks :blush: ill take that as a compliment

One GOD is all that's left. Luckily there are some Aboriginals left. They know. — Nosferatu

That one GOD should create a pantheon and a bunch of imbiciles to believe in it, that way SHE wont get blamed for all the bullshit

It's prominent on my disordered shell. I used the book for my scription: "forms of realism". I was surprised to find it on the table at the professor's (Radder) office. — Nosferatu

Yes, professor Radder. Genius man, gentle soul, loving husband. Too bad what happened, you heard he was poisoned by anthrax in his cocaine, right?

if he contacts me, i will be the happiest lil fella on the globe

I delivered it... — Nosferatu

I hope you used email. Its easier to trace, and you'll more than likely get credit where credit is due

I heard about those students. Authorities found them dead with egg on their face, little did they know it was anthrax laced cocaina.

His mortal trip... — Nosferatu

But not his final trip

lol. Of course it is. You cannot trust European investgators, they're all on the take, and they're always a'peein. Sorry bad joke

nini

Don't underestimate Radder. He has his very own take on reality. Even wrote a book about it. It couldn't prevent his public demise though. — Nosferatu

Give me a link to Radder and I will check it out. I am only joking about the anthrax. I wasn't being disrespectful about any personal issues.

Excuse me? — Nosferatu

Its internet slang that the kids use to mean goodnight, no disrespect meant

I love your constitution — Nosferatu

We generally have a decent constitution in the states, but too many of us are lactose intolerant.

Ohoooh. My wife just woke up. Now that's a philosophical problem! I look for the link. — Nosferatu

Can't wait to see more of your shitty shitty BANGBANG here

don't get banned, practice self censorship.

Thanks for that link, im all over it, ill let you know what i think

I agree that a fact is a statement. You aver it's a true statement but you have no standard for truth. — tim wood

@Janus and @Banno are arguing from the point of view of God, while you and I are arguing from a pragmatic human POV. Hence the disagreement. The moment they realize that they are not God, they will understand that facts can only be established by us humans via some evidence...

Is that avatar of yours dr. Strangelove? "Wollt euch den totalen Krieg? Mhihihih..." Great movie! All of Kubrick. — Nosferatu

Indeed! Merchwuerdigichliebe is Dr. Strangelove's german name. My greastest inspiration after Bugs Bunny. And Kubrick is definitely the greatest director ever, no competition

I'll have to check out that director, im unfamiliar with his work

Think on this: how do you know that the Bishop moves diagonally? What observation supports this? — Banno

I read it in the chess rules.

perhaps you are asking when a statement ought be believed. There is no general answer to that question. — Banno

I think the question is: when should a statement be taken as fact, and when should it not? In other words, how does one determine a fact?

When cops work on a case, they are supposed to come up with facts. Do you think they write T-sentences in their notebook in order to do that?

...determine... — Olivier5

Belief in facts is not determinate. Mentioned before. You can believe whatever you like.

Janus and Banno are arguing from the point of view of God, while you and I are arguing from a pragmatic human POV. Hence the disagreement. The moment they realize that they are not God, they will understand that facts can only be established by us humans via some evidence... — Olivier5

What does this bit of nonsense have to do with anything in this thread?

Cheers. Bye.

Belief in facts is not determinate. — Banno

What does that mean?

What does this bit of nonsense have to do with anything in this thread? — Banno

That you define "fact" in a static, unusable manner, as if the determination of what counts as fact and what doesn't was obvious or irrelevant.

The moment they realize that they are not God, they will understand that facts can only be established by us humans via some evidence... — Olivier5

It has nothing to do with being God; it ironically is just the opposite; it has to do with being fallible. If you don't acknowledge that some of what are generally taken to be facts may in fact not be, then I don't know what else to say to you except "keep digging".

I dare you to try and actually engage in philosophical discussion with your next account. Pathetic troll.

If you don't acknowledge that some of what are generally taken to be facts may in fact not be [facts], then I don't know what else to say to you except "keep digging". — Janus

Of course I acknowledge that not all what passes for a fact deserves the title. Which is precisely why I am interested in a pragmatic definition, that gives a sense of how facts are determined by us human beings in practice.

Ciao Marco.

Yep; that's exactly why empiricism tries to militarise the term, as can be seen in this thread. Athena may have. a desire to take advantage of that process in her discussions with her nephew. Denying a distinction between belief and truth might look like a good move, but it plays into the hands of those who would peddle bullshit; identifying bullshit relies on identifying a difference between what is true and what someone believes. — Banno

To be clear, that is an opinion, not a fact. And in the good old days, we called talking about others gossip.

This thread has really deteriorated. I would love to clean it up by deleting the personal attacks that should never become part of a thread or just close it to stop the bad behavior.