Which translation are you using ? — Amity
[numbers added. 1)] To put it differently, how does this three-fold division, cave, light of sun, Forms, correspond to the two-fold division of visible and intelligible? [2)] Are the Forms themselves more than images or are they shadows in the mind cast by Plato the image maker? [3)] Does the image of escape from the cave to a light above the light of the sun bind us more firmly to the cave?
— Fooloso4
I have no idea. Hadn't even thought of it in these terms.
Good questions. What and where are the answers, if any ? — Amity
It’s phrased in such a way as to leave it an open question.
— Wayfarer
One that only the dead can answer — Fooloso4
Looking away from Plato to a later tradition is, in my opinion, to avoid Plato. — Fooloso4
Yes, and philosophy is 'practicing for death'. — Wayfarer
It's not avoidance. After Plato's death, his philosophy was the source of inspiration for generations of philosophers — Wayfarer
How does one practice dying and being dead? If you have never been dead how do you know you are practicing it in the right way? — Fooloso4
The Orphics were an ascetic sect; wine, to them, was only a symbol, as, later, in the Christian sacrament. The intoxication that they sought was that of "enthusiasm," of union with the God. They believed themselves, in this way, to acquire mystic knowledge not obtainable by ordinary means. This mystical element entered into Greek philosophy with Pythagoras, who was a reformer of Orphism as Orpheus was a reformer of the religion of Dionysus. From Pythagoras Orphic elements entered into the philosophy of Plato, and from Plato into most later philosophy that was in any degree religious. — Bertrand Russell, HWP, p 37
There is a difference between the attempt to understand what an author said and looking at how others might have been inspired by what he said. — Fooloso4
Can there be any knowledge in the absence of sensibles? — Fooloso4
The Forms are hypotheticals. Images presented by Plato, cleverly presented as if one has been initiated into the mysteries of the truth. — Fooloso4
Believing it is the truth itself is to mistake the image for the truth. But the truth is, they may insist that there are Forms, but they have no knowledge of Forms. Rather than being drawn closer to the truth their imagination takes them further away. — Fooloso4
Why is this so? Why can't the prisoner unshackle and free himself? Why is philosophy still associated with no inherent value, or even more practically, valued so little? — Shawn
Why is this so? Why can't the prisoner unshackle and free himself? — Shawn
Why is this so? Why can't the prisoner unshackle and free himself? Why is philosophy still associated with no inherent value, or even more practically, valued so little? — Shawn
Why can't the prisoner unshackle and free himself? Why is philosophy still associated with no inherent value, or even more practically, valued so little? — Shawn
I'm confused now - why would there be no 'sensibles' - whatever you mean by that ? — Amity
But shouldn't that be a bit grander: 'The Mysteries of the Truth' ? — Amity
Gotcha.
But many still argue the point. Endlessly. — Amity
isn't that what 'mortification' originally referred to? — Wayfarer
And the meaning of 'anamnesis' is recalling what the soul knew prior to this life. — Wayfarer
These are associated with asceticism and specifically, in the context, with Orphic asceticism. — Wayfarer
I think it presents a form of dualism that is plausible from a contemporary viewpoint, and compatible with Platonism — Wayfarer
:up:The question is whether Plato is compatible with Platonism. The only way to determine that is to first attempt to read Plato without being under the shadow of later works. — Fooloso4
:flower: :100:The religion that worships its chains! There is a persistent illusion that distorts my view of the world, that my pain and pleasure is more significant than yours, and my life more important than yours. The combination of this myopia and short arms means that I tend to myself and let you tend to to yourself most of the time. But when there is nothing beyond self, we cannot even communicate, let alone cooperate. Have some more tea. — unenlightened
Isn't it the case that in the later tradition of Aristotelian philosophy that nous apprehends the forms, and the senses apprehend the body? That all particulars are a compound of form (morphe) and matter (hyle)? — Wayfarer
The result is that there are two different kinds of readers of the dialogues. Those who image something grander, something higher, something transcendent, and those who, like Socrates himself, are grounded by self-knowledge, which includes the awareness that we know nothing of transcendent truths. — Fooloso4
In the intelligible realm there are no sensibles, only objects of the mind. — Fooloso4
The eternal magic roundabout. I blame Plato. He got what he wanted. — Amity
What are the 'objects of the mind' ? — Amity
I simply, naively and perhaps foolishly cling to this, that nothing else makes it beautiful other than the presence of, or the sharing in, or however you may describe its relationship to that Beautiful we mentioned, for I will not insist on the precise nature of the relationship, but that all beautiful things are beautiful by the Beautiful. That, I think, is the safest answer I can give myself or anyone else.” (100e)
Sounds like abstract mental concepts. — Amity
The body and the mind are inter-related. It's a 2-way process. — Amity
Humans are the creators. — Amity
Most people don't react positively to their idea of reality being rattled. They'd rather live in the comfort of their own illusions than to confront them. That is why. — Tzeentch
My sympathy is always with the folk in the cave. Why would you leave when things are predictable and familiar? There is no great psychological benefit to be found in disruptions and upheavals. Further, most of us are not looking for truth or deliverance, we are looking for safety. — Tom Storm
Similarly, the task of Plato's philosophers is to distance themselves from everyday life in order to see things in a different light (the light of the Good) after which they return to society to enlighten their fellow citizens. — Apollodorus
This raises an interesting question as to whether a philosopher or philosophers have any duty towards their fellow citizens. What do you think? — Shawn
And the meaning of 'anamnesis' is recalling what the soul knew prior to this life. These are associated with asceticism and specifically, in the context, with Orphic asceticism. — Wayfarer
This organ of knowledge [inner eye] must be turned around from the world of becoming together with the entire soul, like the scene-shifting periact in the theater, until the soul is able to endure the contemplation of essence and the brightest region of being (Rep. 518c)
Do you mean Christian mortification? — Fooloso4
But you seem to think that these are not shadows but illuminations. I don't think we will be able to reconcile this difference. — Fooloso4
Standard readings of mathematical claims entail the existence of mathematical objects. But, our best epistemic theories seem to debar any knowledge of mathematical objects. Thus, the philosopher of mathematics faces a dilemma: either abandon standard readings of mathematical claims or give up our best epistemic theories. Neither option is attractive.
Some philosophers, called rationalists, claim that we have a special, non-sensory capacity for understanding mathematical truths, a rational insight arising from pure thought. But, the rationalist’s claims appear incompatible with an understanding of human beings as physical creatures whose capacities for learning are exhausted by our physical bodies.
(Plato) raises the question of the relationship between things and Forms, but does not insist on the precise nature of that relationship. Why? It he had a coherent argument why wouldn't he present it here or elsewhere? He calls the hypothesis of Forms (100a) simple, naive, and perhaps foolish, and later "safe and ignorant". (105 b) — Fooloso4
Also, I don't think philosophy asks for disruptions and upheavals. It's just the task of the philosopher to question. — Shawn
Plato's philosophers, after all, were to be trained for the express purpose of serving the people. — Apollodorus
My gut feeling is that although philosophy does not set out to be disruptive, it is pretty much guaranteed to do so if you take it seriously - at the very least, to use Kant's worn out phrase, you'll awaken from a dogmatic slumber. — Tom Storm
They are not objects of the mind in the sense of being products of the mind, but of being known by the mind. They include at the lower level of the divide line mathematical objects and at thehigher level the Forms. But since the Forms are hypotheticals, they are products of the mind. Further they are products of the imagination. The divided line turns out to be not so neatly divided. — Fooloso4
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.