Still doesn't change the healthcare problem, now does it? — Benkei
Limitations:Predominantly male population; lack of data on disease severity, mortality, and effectiveness by SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern; and short-term follow-up.
Emphasis mine, to help your reading comprehension. — Isaac
I wonder if that means pro-vaxxers will stop saying the vaccines are safe and effective...oh no wait, it won't...because it's just the opinion of one fucking physician and no one in their right mind would change their entire belief system on that basis... — Isaac
But that entirely misses the issue, because breakthrough cases are rare compared to cases in the unvaccinated
— Xtrix
The number of COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC are an undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons, especially of asymptomatic or mild infections.
— CDC — Isaac
— CDCFully vaccinated people have much stronger protection against COVID-19 compared to those who aren’t. Vaccinated people who get infected are less likely to experience symptoms (if any), compared to those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people are also likely to recover faster, even against delta.
CDC data shows that over 99.99% of people who were fully vaccinated against COVID-19 did not die or even require hospitalization. The highest hospitalization rates remain in areas with low vaccination rates.
That said, some vaccinated people can still get delta variant breakthrough infections and spread the virus to others. Previous variants produced less viral loads in fully vaccinated people than in unvaccinated people. In contrast, the delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of viral load in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people.
How common are breakthrough cases?
Breakthrough cases are still considered to be very rare. They appear to be most common among new variant strains. It’s hard to get an exact count since many vaccinated people don’t show symptoms, and therefore, don’t get tested.
Washington state data shows there were 21,757 vaccine breakthrough cases among more than 4.1 million vaccinated people from January 17 — August 21, 2021. Although that might sound like a high number, it means that only 0.5% of vaccinated Washingtonians had breakthrough infections. Of the breakthrough cases that we have data for, just 9% required hospitalization and less than 1% died of a COVID-related illness.
If you continue to spread this idea that vaccines generally make you unable to spread the virus (apart from a few 'rare' breakthrough cases) you'll worsen the problem. — Isaac
It is dangerous to spread the myth that vaccines reduce transmission in all but a few 'rare' cases. — Isaac
the standard note about limitations, of which you’ll find in nearly every study. — Xtrix
I didn’t cite just one physician, I cited two large studies which demolished your ignorant claims about infections and transmission. — Xtrix
Given that vaccination reduces asymptomatic infection with SARS-CoV-2,2,3 it is plausible that vaccination reduces transmission; however, data from clinical trials and observational studies are lacking.
even if that weren’t the comparison, they’re still rare: — Xtrix
It’s hard to get an exact count since many vaccinated people don’t show symptoms, and therefore, don’t get tested.
It is dangerous to spread the myth that vaccines reduce transmission in all but a few 'rare' cases. — Isaac
And yet these studies say exactly that. Odd. — Xtrix
While a COVID-19 vaccine will prevent serious illness and death, we still don’t know the extent to which it keeps you from being infected and passing the virus on to others. — https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice
you consistently lack in your sophomoric understanding of the science. — Isaac
I didn’t cite just one physician, I cited two large studies which demolished your ignorant claims about infections and transmission.
— Xtrix
The other studies aren't about transmission, they're about infection. Infection and transmission are not the same thing. — Isaac
from the NEJM September 2021 — Isaac
How do you square...
even if that weren’t the comparison, they’re still rare:
— Xtrix
...with
It’s hard to get an exact count since many vaccinated people don’t show symptoms, and therefore, don’t get tested.
I know your grasp of statistics is shockingly poor, but if we don't know the population size we can know the frequency of the observations. — Isaac
Breakthrough cases are still considered to be very rare.
Washington state data shows there were 21,757 vaccine breakthrough cases among more than 4.1 million vaccinated people from January 17 — August 21, 2021. Although that might sound like a high number, it means that only 0.5% of vaccinated Washingtonians had breakthrough infections. Of the breakthrough cases that we have data for, just 9% required hospitalization and less than 1% died of a COVID-related illness.
Primary school level - we divide the number of observations by the size of the population. The second part of that equation is missing. — Isaac
So the WHO are wrong then when they say
While a COVID-19 vaccine will prevent serious illness and death, we still don’t know the extent to which it keeps you from being infected and passing the virus on to others. — Isaac
You cannot transmit the virus if you don’t have the virus. — Xtrix
systemic respiratory vaccines generally provide limited protection against viral replication and shedding within the airway, as this requires a local mucosal secretory IgA response
You sure they're converging on a genetic fallacy? You think they'd be happier with witchdoctors brewing things out in the woods? — jorndoe
Mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac
Denying that such mistrust is justified is therefore among the top activities of the pro-vaccine lobby. — Isaac
If it were, then people would not take pharmaceuticals. — James Riley
Until the start of the 2000s around 90% of French people were pro-vaccine, but then scandals involving drug companies shook public confidence. A turning point came in 2009 when the French government ordered huge quantities of vaccine against the swine flu epidemic. Less than 10% of people took up the offer to get the vaccine amid fears of side-effects. The government was seen as having massively over-ordered with public funds, raising questions about financial interests.
“In our recent history, the H1N1 [swine flu] was the moment when doubt settled into the general population. It went beyond the small circles of anti-vaccine campaigners,” Vignaud said.
Already, earlier scandals had taken a toll. In the mid-1980s haemophilia patients were given HIV-tainted blood transfusions, and questions were raised as to how much the state had known. Then came a row over hepatitis B vaccinations: between 1994 and 1998 almost two-thirds of the French population and almost all newborn babies were vaccinated against hepatitis B, but the programme was suspended after concerns arose about possible side-effects.
The vaccines reduce the virus in the blood, the virus that you transmit is in the nasal mucosa. — Isaac
[...] both mRNA COVID-19 vaccines strongly protect against infection and severe disease
let's remember the original claim: vaccinated people are just as likely to spread the virus as unvaccinated people — Xtrix
the data so far suggest a much, much better efficacy rate for nasal infection as well, compared to the unvaccinated — Xtrix
So this diversion still doesn't support the original claim. — Xtrix
the vaccines are safe, effective, and slow the spread of the virus by lowering both infection (internal and mucosal) -- whether one contracts the virus at all -- and severity of symptoms in breakthrough cases (hence far less hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated who contract the virus). Breakthrough cases remain very rare indeed, as per the CDC -- and for those without reading comprehension issues. — Xtrix
Ah, the binomial thinking is contagious. Why, in your bizarre hypothetical, are people robbed of their ability to use more than one factor in their judgements? — Isaac
They're not. Twas you that painted pharma with a single brush. — James Riley
Are you really so bromidic that you can't think of any other option than the system we have or witch doctors? — Isaac
I think they'd be happier with a system guided more around the public good and less around private profiteering. — Isaac
the vaccines are safe, effective, and slow the spread of the virus by lowering both infection (internal and mucosal) -- whether one contracts the virus at all -- and severity of symptoms in breakthrough cases (hence far less hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated who contract the virus). Breakthrough cases remain very rare indeed, as per the CDC -- and for those without reading comprehension issues.
— Xtrix
Is all the opinion of some scientists based on a handful of low powered studies suffering from the same limitations as most biosciences (which is why they can barely even manage a 50% replicability rate). — Isaac
My 'claim' is limited to showing that matters you present as certain, settled facts believed by virtually all experts are nothing of the sort. — Isaac
Some incorrigibility among anti-vaxxers has been seen. Whether or not a vaccine is produced in this or that factory may not make much difference to those people. — jorndoe
So, here I am arguing that alternative viewpoints to the government narrative are often perfectly valid, even if they're unpopular, so long as they meet the threshold of expert approval and peer review. — Isaac
let's remember the original claim: vaccinated people are just as likely to spread the virus as unvaccinated people
— Xtrix
I never made that claim. — Isaac
Ha! That's brilliant. You're citing a study showing how radicals refuse to believe in the possibility of error as evidence that we should accept what our governments tell us without question. — Isaac
I'm met with a wall of infantile simplicity, fixated on the utter truth of a single narrative. — Isaac
Some measure of common sense isn't to be scoffed at. The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe
Still doesn't change the healthcare problem, now does it? Also try to remember this is a pandemic. The world doesn't revolve around the USA. — Benkei
Gods, I can't believe I'm having to actually write this out to explain... — Isaac
Mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac
As for all those who are full of vaccinations .. I don't know what the fallout will be. — MondoR
Vaccinations are just another unnatural manipulation of the natural immune system, with totally unknown effects. — MondoR
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