Tithonus' boon/curse He's technically immortal but in actuality his condition is best described as a macabre form of torture - prolonging and aggravating all age-related problems. Tithonus, indeed does not die but he does age.

In later tellings, he eventually became a cicada (tettix), eternally living, but begging for death to overcome him. — Wikipedia

Nice. I have always been astonished by old men who tell me they still feel 25. Really? I stopped feeling young in my late twenties.

I'm in my mid-50's and I feel like I have done most things I've wanted to do, so I have no ambition to live a long life. I am not keen to become frail or need help with tasks of daily living. I hope to be dead before this happens.

Best years? Can't say I would elevate any particular era I've lived through so far but I think I enjoyed my 40's most. Advantages of getting old? Probably experience. I disliked being young so perhaps growing old will be better.

Without looking it up, what percent of the population do you think live past 100? — Bitter Crank

No idea. I do know that if you were born 2000 onwards then you're more than likely going to reach 100. Very strange phenomenon humanity's exponentially increasing longevity!

What were the best years of your life, so far? — Bitter Crank

Was close to dying few years ago. Happy about every day afterwards that I can share with my children and even to write here on PF. My youngest child was then quite young, so she wouldn't have remembered much of me. Now she'll remember.

Best years? The present that we are living. Never doesn't get better than that. Best past years? When I was 12. Still a child and no worries, yet you could think and understand things and you remember things well. Before that sucking teenage time.

What kills is loneliness. You don't have motivation to live. Once all your friends have died, then it's bad. Then people can start question life and have the attitude, "Ok, that was it".

When will you be ‘old’? 60? 70? 80? 90? 100? 100+? — Bitter Crank

I'm 69. If you'll promise not to call me a "senior citizen" or a "senior" and won't notify the AARP where I live, I'll admit to being old.

Without looking it up, what percent of the population do you think live past 100? — Bitter Crank

0.5 percent.

Do you hate or fear the idea of getting old and needing assistance for some tasks? — Bitter Crank

My wife and I have both been having significant problems with mobility because of our hips. She just had a replacement. Mine is scheduled for the end of this month. My sons have been helping out a lot. It sucks.

If you had a choice, at which age would you like to die an easy death? — Bitter Crank

147.

If you are “old”, when do people stop being “young”? (When did you stop being “young”?) — Bitter Crank

When did I stop being young? 35 I guess. When do I think other people stop being young? Say 40. Women between the ages of 35 and 45 are at their most attractive.

What might be some advantages to being old (not “getting older”— but being downright “old”)? — Bitter Crank

Advantages - I don't have to work any more. I don't have to do what I don't want to do very much now.

Interesting things:

• My attitude toward time has changed. It feels like everything that ever happened to me is all happening at the same time. Now. My father, who died in 2001, is still here as much as the other members of my family.
• I've seen everything four times. It's hard to get excited about hurricanes and Donald Trump.
• Whenever I meet someone new, I tell them my birth date.
• I'm much more aware of my body, because it doesn't work so well sometimes now.
• I have become profoundly wise.

what percent — Bitter Crank

No idea. — I like sushi

It's a very small number--well below 1%. "according to the U.S. Census Special Report on Centenarians, in 2010, there were 53,364 centenarians in the United States. 80% of centenarians are female.

if you were born 2000 onwards then you're more than likely going to reach 100. — I like sushi

Global warming might start trimming the population at all ages. Not just the heat, but social disruption.

I have always been astonished by old men who tell me they still feel 25. — Tom Storm

They probably don't feel physically like age 25. When I say I feel young, I mean mentally, but what do I mean by that?

Active curiosity
good memory
ability to concentrate
better intellectual skills - less overall stupidity
much more perspective

Sex drive at 75? Mercifully lessened. It's something of a relief to have that persistent urge quiet (most of the time anyway).

Global warming might start trimming the population at all ages. Not just the heat, but social disruption. — Bitter Crank

Don't forget the technological singularity. 2045. That's when our machine overlords will take over and crush us.

Well, as an elder - perhaps the elder at age 84 - on this forum, I'll make a few comments. But first, anyone older than me please speak up.

They probably don't feel physically like age 25. When I say I feel young, I mean mentally, but what do I mean by that?
— Bitter Crank

• Active curiosity (Important as one ages. Don't give up on the world.)
• good memory (I wish. Images pop right up, but words describing them don't.)
• ability to concentrate (Hopefully you've honed this over the years. If not, good luck.)
• better intellectual skills - less overall stupidity (In politics recall what W. Churchill had to say about liberalism vs conservatism)
• much more perspective (Depends if you've paid attention when younger.)
• Sex drive at 75? Mercifully lessened (Speak for yourself, buddy!)

.

I have an inkling it may actually be due to some bizarre genetic mechanism observed in other animals (locust and bacterium) where once a certain threshold in population is reached something kicks in.

The increase in longevity is a well documented phenomenon that shows no sign of slowing. I don’t for a second believe global warming will impact population growth much at all tbh. Population growth is related to poverty more than anything most likely.

I'm rather uncertain about this but I believe $IQ = \frac {Mental \space Age}{Bodily \space Age} \times 100$.

So higher the IQ, your mind is, in a sense, older than your body and a low IQ indicates you're mentally immature.

I mentioned this because the holy grail of philosophy is wisdom and that of medicine, in some ways, is eternal youth. Combine these two together and you have as a pragmatic goal high IQ. Go read books Bitter Crank old chap! Good luck! The same goes for everyone else too.

We need our minds to age, we want our bodies to stay young. I guess whether aging is a curse/boon depends on what it is, the mind/the body, that's aging.

I'm rather uncertain about this but I believe IQ=Mental Age/Bodily Age×100. — TheMadFool

This is correct

Edit: I think the terms actual age or chronological age should be used rather than bodily age. It often refers to biological age, which is about how messed up your body is for your age.

I'm rather uncertain about this but I believe IQ=Mental AgeBodily Age×100IQ=Mental AgeBodily Age×100. — TheMadFool

IQ - A number representing a person's reasoning ability (measured using problem-solving tests) as compared to the statistical norm or average for their age, taken as 100.

Using your formulation, I would become less intelligent as I got older, even if my mental acuity stayed the same.

Using your formulation, I would become less intelligent as I got older, even if my mental acuity stayed the same. — T Clark

Your mental acuity or intelligence is compared to the average mental acuity of a group of people of the same age as yours. If the average mental acuity of the group goes down but yours remains the same, your IQ goes up.

IQ means intelligence quotient, not intelligence.

IQ means intelligence quotient, not intelligence. — Vince

From Wikipedia - An intelligence quotient (IQ) is a total score derived from a set of standardized tests or subtests designed to assess human intelligence.

This might clear up a few things

https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-calculate-mental-age-based-on-your-IQ-if-the-formula-to-calculate-IQ-is-mental-age-chronological-age-x-100

Wikipedia also says this:

"Scores from intelligence tests are estimates of intelligence. Unlike, for example, distance and mass, a concrete measure of intelligence cannot be achieved given the abstract nature of the concept of "intelligence"

The tests correspond to your mental acuity or intelligence but aren't sufficient to estimate your absolute intelligence because mental acuity varies depending on your age. An IQ measurement is your best bet.

Go read books Bitter Crank old chap! — TheMadFool

In the last 10 years I've read more and better books than I had previously read in 20 years. Time, at last. And Amazon + the iPad.

I like books that clearly explain how things came to be. So, How The Mountains Grew: A New Geological History of North America by John Dvorak is an excellent history of the planet from dust ball to what you walk around on now. A different area of explanation came from Barons of the Sea: and their race to build the world's fastest clipper ships by Steven Ujifusa. This was about the British/American/China trade in tea -- and illegal opium. Great fortunes were made in this trade, among them Warren Delano's--grandfather of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Speed in shipping mattered then, as now. One wanted to be the first into port with the narcotic (China) or tea (New York and London).

This is all much more meaningful now than when I was in college. Geology 101 was a great course, but I hadn't seen much geology myself--beyond a low hills and river valleys. The most significant geological feature where I grew up was loess, dirt blown off the receding glaciers. I hadn't seen a Great Lake, an ocean, a mountains, or a canyon yet. Continental drift was a fairly new concept in 1965.

The next book is Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America by David Fischer. The 'four seeds' were Puritans (East Anglia), Quakers (North midlands), Cavaliers (southern England) and the Scotch-Irish (borderlands and Ulster). From a Puritan POV, the Cavaliers and Scotch Irish were a liability, creating the slave-holding South and the troublesome Appalachians. The feeling about liabilities was and remains mostly mutual.

The New England Puritans (liberal Yankees) and the Cavalier/Scotch Irish (southerners and Reagan Republicans) are still with us. I come from the upper-midwestern Yankee Land.

The level of stupidity I inhabited when I started college was very deep. I think, believe, hope, and claim I've come a long way since then.

a concrete measure of intelligence cannot be achieved given the abstract nature of the concept of "intelligence" — Vince

Exactly. But I can't clarify what intelligence is, either.

Some people are clearly not intelligent, whatever that is, and other people are. It seems to be somewhat flexible. People who claim to never having read a book after they graduated from college (or high school) have almost certainly become significantly more stupid. On the other hand, high school / college drop outs who have been reading non-fiction voraciously are likely becoming more intelligent. I've known some formidable uneducated minds.

Some people are socially intelligent (they are born knowing how to work a crowd). I'm a social moron. Other people are gifted in spacial and mechanical matters. They may be inarticulate, but they understand a lot of stuff that is beyond many a college professor. There are teenagers who know how to make big money legally in business, or can write advanced programming. Not me.

If I'm good at anything, it's the big picture--and a few fiddly skills that aren't worth much.

Given a few hours, a psychologist can measure several axes of intelligence and come up with a pretty good summary of intellectual capacity. Similarly, several axes of personality can be measured. That's not what's done, though, in most cases--people get paper-and-pencil tests which are a very rough measure.

A psych prof once said "Want to" is more important than "IQ". That seems to be generally true. Highly motivated people accomplish more than lazy slobs, no matter what their intelligence is.

Using your formulation, I would become less intelligent as I got older, even if my mental acuity stayed the same. — T Clark

Some people do manage to become stupider as they age, but many people seem to get brighter. My guess is that the people who get brighter with age were smart to begin with, but were submerged in work (childrearing, factory, office, barns and fields). After they get rid of the children (who grow up and leave home, one hopes), maybe get rid of the boring / nagging / needy spouse (through natural causes, of course), and retire, they can finally blossom intellectually.

Given a few hours — Bitter Crank

As well as a few hundred dollars

I think there's controversy regarding the fact that your IQ can change over time, it is not supposed to, unless you are afflicted by a brain degenerative disease or you take the Einstein pill.

As one grows up to become an adult so does their brain and their intelligence, but not their IQ. As one ages, usually past the 20s, there is cognitive decline, at least in terms of concentration and speed. It is good to note that IQ tests are timed.

As one ages, usually past the 20s, there is cognitive decline — Vince

Granted: there certainly are people who peak early (or not) and whose decline -- at middle age -- is clearly visible. And I'm not thinking of people with TBI or early-onset Alzheimers. Just ordinary people whose intellectual skills don't hold up over time. But there are also those people whose varied cognitive skills don't decline.

As one grows up to become an adult so does their brain and their intelligence, but not their IQ. — Vince

Aren't these statements ignoring 'plasticity' - the ability of the brain to become more complex (more connections among neurons) over time? And if the brain is fully developed by the mid 20s, that surely doesn't necessitate immediate decline thereafter. No plateau?

While some do, others do not think of intelligence as a "fixed quantity". One might think of it as more a dynamic quantity, determined by current environment, interest, motivation, previously acquired skills, practice, and so on. Just guessing, someone going through a bad divorce, terrible job, major illness or injury, and so forth would probably test out with a lower IQ than they would before or after these distressing circumstances. Conversely, someone whose life is full, happy, stimulating, and so on would measure out better than they otherwise would.

There are individual scores, and then there are millions of scores. Maybe we focus too much on 1 score out of a million (which if it is ours, is VERY important).

In the last 10 years I've read more and better books than I had previously read in 20 years. Time, at last. And Amazon + the iPad.

I like books that clearly explain how things came to be. So, How The Mountains Grew: A New Geological History of North America by John Dvorak is an excellent history of the planet from dust ball to what you walk around on now. A different area of explanation came from Barons of the Sea: and their race to build the world's fastest clipper ships by Steven Ujifusa. This was about the British/American/China trade in tea -- and illegal opium. Great fortunes were made in this trade, among them Warren Delano's--grandfather of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Speed in shipping mattered then, as now. One wanted to be the first into port with the narcotic (China) or tea (New York and London).

This is all much more meaningful now than when I was in college. Geology 101 was a great course, but I hadn't seen much geology myself--beyond a low hills and river valleys. The most significant geological feature where I grew up was loess, dirt blown off the receding glaciers. I hadn't seen a Great Lake, an ocean, a mountains, or a canyon yet. Continental drift was a fairly new concept in 1965.

The next book is Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America by David Fischer. The 'four seeds' were Puritans (East Anglia), Quakers (North midlands), Cavaliers (southern England) and the Scotch-Irish (borderlands and Ulster). From a Puritan POV, the Cavaliers and Scotch Irish were a liability, creating the slave-holding South and the troublesome Appalachians. The feeling about liabilities was and remains mostly mutual.

The New England Puritans (liberal Yankees) and the Cavalier/Scotch Irish (southerners and Reagan Republicans) are still with us. I come from the upper-midwestern Yankee Land.

The level of stupidity I inhabited when I started college was very deep. I think, believe, hope, and claim I've come a long way since then. — Bitter Crank

Truth is you come off as a very learned person and that's not all, you seem to have a knack for writing. A killer combination by all accounts. :up:

This is correct

Edit: I think the terms actual age or chronological age should be used rather than bodily age. It often refers to biological age, which is about how messed up your body is for your age. — Vince

:ok:

IQ - A number representing a person's reasoning ability (measured using problem-solving tests) as compared to the statistical norm or average for their age, taken as 100.

Using your formulation, I would become less intelligent as I got older, even if my mental acuity stayed the same. — T Clark

Not if you ensure your mind stays sharper than your coevals. Is this possible though? I'm not sure. Some say the brain shrinks as one ages.

Long ago I read a book about centenarians and if I recall correctly, the theme that I derived from the personal stories basically corresponded to Newton’s first law of motion, that an object in motion tends to stay in motion and an object at rest tends to stay at rest. The centenarians who had active (mental & physical) lives were vital and those that had sedentary lives were like vegetables.

As one grows up to become an adult so does their brain and their intelligence, but not their IQ.
— Vince

Aren't these statements ignoring 'plasticity' - the ability of the brain to become more complex (more connections among neurons) over time? And if the brain is fully developed by the mid 20s, that surely doesn't necessitate immediate decline thereafter. No plateau? — Bitter Crank

I've reached my limit about what I know about IQ but I believe it goes down to biology and genetics. I think what an IQ test is trying to measure is (besides the ability to do IQ tests), the composition and properties of a brain, probably in terms of speed, complexity, even plasticity. However I don't believe neuroplasticity makes the brain more complex but rather that it rewires and reorganizes things so certain tasks can be executed faster and better. I believe it applies to physical tasks but also to mental tasks, hence the impression to become more intelligent even at an old age. What I believe is that there is a reallocation of resources in the brain that turn mental tasks to automatisms, just like what we call second nature in physical tasks. We might feel more intelligent as we age but we have just made our brain more efficient to do certain mental processes.

I started playing music in my late teens and I have not stopped for 35 years. Listening to music tones every day for so long is now turning most natural sounds into tones in my mind. I catch myself sometimes mentally transcribing birdsongs automatically. I've developed a very strong pitch discrimination and pitch memory, all of this without even trying.

I heard this in a radio discussion this morning. A neurologist or psychologist said that the primary purpose of the brain is running the body--everything from heart rate and temperature regulation to vomiting bad food to not falling off a bike. It does manage our philosophical discussions, but that's a bonus. The main thing is keeping us alive. We don't measure that extremely important function in IQ tests (we measure it by longevity).

resources in the brain that turn mental tasks to automatisms — Vince

Like habits and "muscle learning'. I haven't thought about how to keep my bike upright for a long time; I just do. Muscles, of course, don't learn but the brain controlling the muscles does. When I type I don't have to look at the screen to know I hit the wrong key. I feel it in my fingers. You probably experience something similar when you perform music -- you can feel the wrong note, even if you can hear it too.

Your experience with music, birdsong, and pitch is typical of so much of the brain -- HOW the brain does this stuff is hidden from view. We don't know exactly how the brain does most of the stuff it does. If one knows a piece of music very well (from listening or performing), one can often recognize it within the first 2 or 3 measures or even 1 or 2 seconds of sound. HOW the brain tracks down a song based on a sliver sized sample is just not subject to observation.

There are blind people who can--to a limited extent--echo-navigate. Some have gotten quite good at this. Animal studies have shown that--laying dignity aside--people can put their face to the dirt and sniff out a trail on the ground -- not nearly as well as a dog, but we can follow an odor trail (not a rabbit, but maybe drops of chocolate or vanilla).

Such abilities as identifying where a wine originated, what varieties of this season's tea harvest adds up to the standard Lipton's Tea flavor, or something as homely as knowing when the bread dough has been kneaded long enough just don't show up on IQ tests, or the General Aptitude Test Battery (GATB) for that matter.