This is one token of a chair: “the very same chair”. You are not distinguishing two instances of chair here. — Luke
We cannot have different instances of the very same token, by definition. A token is an instance of a type, not an instance of seeing or encountering something. — Luke
But when people talk about their inner experiences, we tend to assume they are all numerically distinct, that having "the same feeling" at one time that you had at another means only that you have had two quite similar feelings. Why is that? Is it because we are physical beings, subject to time and chance?
There seems to be no logical barrier to having the same experience or the same sensation twice. But it strikes us as wrong. We believe "I have the exact same feeling I had when ..." is always literally false. What would have to be different for us to consider such a statement, like the unintentional return of the loaned book, literally true? — Srap Tasmaner
we can have different instances of the very same token. PERIOD. Why is this so difficult to you? — Metaphysician Undercover
I didn't say we can have two different instances of the same token, that doesn't even make sense to me. — Metaphysician Undercover
You know what I meant. Your pretense continues to baffle me. — Metaphysician Undercover
So I'll repeat what I said before. The ambiguity inherent in your preferred type/token distinction produces the confusion required for your mode of argumentation. — Metaphysician Undercover
My point was only that we seem to assume all of our inner experiences are numerically distinct, unique instances of types, and that the words we use to refer to them must refer to the types. Thus "I have the same feeling I had when we were about to lose the playoff game" is presumed to be literally false; it's not literally the same feeling, but a numerically distinct instance of the same type of feeling. (Or not -- I'm not getting into whether we're right.) I was just wondering where this assumption comes from. I think it's a perfectly good assumption, but it's not just logic. Is it empirical? What is it? — Srap Tasmaner
What confusion? — Luke
The definition of a token is not “encountering a token”, as you obviously think it is. — Luke
Your mode of argumentation, as commonly displayed, is to pay no respect for what the other person is saying — Metaphysician Undercover
In one context I was speaking about instances of sensation of a token. In the other context I was replying to your talk about instances of existence of a token. — Metaphysician Undercover
Different tokens are different instances. PERIOD.
— Luke
You are refusing to acknowledge that despite the fact that "Different tokens are different instances. PERIOD", we can have different instances of the very same token. PERIOD. Why is this so difficult to you?
— Metaphysician Undercover
We cannot have different instances of the very same token, by definition. A token is an instance of a type, not an instance of seeing or encountering something.
— Luke
I didn't say we can have two different instances of the same token, that doesn't even make sense to me. — Metaphysician Undercover
you ceaselessly insist that a token of sensation can only exists if it is present to the conscious mind — Metaphysician Undercover
We are discussing a metaphysical issue — Metaphysician Undercover
So we can remove all this type/token distinction as a distraction, and get right down to what Wittgenstein is actually saying with the example. — Metaphysician Undercover
But tell me again how your contradiction is a result of "different contexts". — Luke
We are discussing Wittgenstein who says in the same work: "What we do is to bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use." — Luke
This is easily solved. Provide an example of a token of sensation that is not present to the conscious mind. — Luke
Rather than a distraction, I introduced the type/token distinction intending to help provide clarity for what could be meant by "the same sensation" or "the same chair". But we got bogged down in your continual misunderstanding and argumentation about what is a token. So you go ahead and give your metaphysical reading. — Luke
I'm looking at my car right now. It is the same car, the same unique instance of a type, that I was looking at yesterday.
I'm feeling confusion now, but it is a brand new unique instance of confusion; it is not numerically identical to the confusion I felt yesterday, not the same confusion.
Why is feeling different from looking-at? That's what I'm wondering. I'm not suggesting it isn't; I'm just wondering why we assume that it is. — Srap Tasmaner
I'd say the reason for this difference is that cars typically last for about 10 or 15 years, while feelings typically don't last as long. However, feelings can last for more than a day, as I noted earlier. You might tell the doctor that you've had the same pain for weeks, months or years. — Luke
This demonstrates a peculiar use of words by Wittgenstein. He says "whatever is going to seem right to me is right. And that only means that here we can't talk about 'right'." What is really the case, is that there is no such thing as "right" here, and we cannot talk about 'right', because the person always knows oneself to be wrong. So the only reason why we cannot talk about "right" here, is because the person has excluded the possibility of being right, by knowing oneself to be wrong.
This implies that a person can know oneself to be wrong, without reference to any rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
Here we can’t talk about ‘wrong’, either. — Luke
The only reason we cannot talk about "right" here, is because the person knows oneself to be wrong. — Metaphysician Undercover
Applied in this case, we can see that a person might continuously have a tooth-ache, and refer to it as one thing, the same thing. This might be for the sake of convenience in the public communication. But in the privacy of one's own mind, the person would see that it is not the same pain from one moment to the next, it goes through many different phases of intensity, etc.. So the person would know that it is incorrect to call it by the same name, "S". Yet in Wittgenstein's example, the person proceeds to do what is known to be incorrect. — Metaphysician Undercover
Since this knowing that it is not the same (because there is no criterion by which it could be the same), necessitates that I am wrong in naming it as the same, therefore there is no possibility of me being right, we cannot talk about being "right" in this context. — Metaphysician Undercover
Why would the diarist mark "S" if they thought it was incorrect to do so? — Luke
What criterion is there by which the sensation could be different? — Luke
I think that the diarist would do that, because I see that people do that all the time. The sensation isn't exactly like the other one, but it's close enough, so I'll mark it as S. — Metaphysician Undercover
And what constitutes a single instance/token of the sensation? — Luke
If you know this stuff, have a go. — Banno
If I wrote anything it wouldn't even last an hour. — Metaphysician Undercover
There is no such thing as a "token of sensation". — Metaphysician Undercover
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