How philosophy can save your life | Jules Evans | TEDxBreda
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XuwYvFlNGns

15mins
CBT and Stoicism - Jules Evans includes personal story with humour.

Somewhere at 12:30 he suddenly says SHIT-BRICKED, and this was beautiful in front of an academic audience.

Somewhere at 12:30 he suddenly says SHIT-BRICKED, and this was beautiful in front of an academic audience. — Shawn

:lol:

Short Story, surely.
So-called Shaky Stoics Shit-bricked on a Ship-wreck :cool:

Thanks - I may not have time as I'm under the pump at work (COVID emergencies, reports). The connection to CBT is clear and I studied Albert Ellis, who developed the foundations of this intervention based on some ideas from Stoicism (particularly Epictetus) and others. As REBT or Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy.

One of the most powerful ideas I ever heard (when I heard it first 35 years ago) is - "It isn't what people say to you or do that upsets you, it is how you chose to react.' Simple and almost a homily on the surface, but so often when people 'go off the rails' it is because they have been unable to hold this in mind.

Epictetus, in the first century A.D. wrote in the Enchiridion: “Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views which they take of them.”

Shakespeare also incorporated a lot from Stoicism...

There an old TS Eliot essay Shakespeare and the stoicism of Seneca.

Shakespeare also incorporated a lot from Stoicism... — Shawn

Hence the often misquoted line "To be or not to be, I'm cool either way.."

One of the most powerful ideas I ever heard (when I heard it first 35 years ago) is - "It isn't what people say to you or do that upsets you, it is how you chose to react.' Simple and almost a homily on the surface, but so often when people 'go off the rails' it is because they have been unable to hold this in mind.

Epictetus, in the first century A.D. wrote in the Enchiridion: “Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views which they take of them.” — Tom Storm

Yes, this is something I try to keep in mind whenever the blood starts to boil for whatever reason.
It is indeed a powerful Stoic theme re the perception of hurt/harm.
Most relevant to @Shawn's

As a stoic, I have had many reasons for engaging in the life of a would be stoic. One of the more imperative reasons would be to attain a sense of inner calm. — Shawn

Marcus Aurelius wrote in The Meditations:
'Remove the judgement, and you have removed the thought 'I am hurt': remove the thought 'I am hurt', and the hurt itself is removed.' (4:7)

It's a recurring theme re how to cope with anxieties, etc.
Being aware of our perceptions and internal judgements about external events/circumstances.
And then addressing rationally...where possible.

I may not have time as I'm under the pump at work (COVID emergencies, reports). The connection to CBT is clear and I studied Albert Ellis, who developed the foundations of this intervention based on some ideas from Stoicism (particularly Epictetus) and others. As REBT or Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy. — Tom Storm

I've read of an increase in referrals and a decrease in resources to deal with the fall-out from Covid and Brexit-related stresses.
Please stay well and continue the good work :sparkle:

Thank you.

Epictetus, in the first century A.D. wrote in the Enchiridion: “Men are disturbed not by things, but by the views which they take of them.” — Tom Storm

Sounds like something said by someone very powerful, someone on whom others depend for mercy.

Modern-day stoicism is all about well-being, and well-being is not opposed to a proper (not deficient or excessive) sense of pride and dignity. Indeed, this really isn't rocket science. — praxis

I'd love to see these modern-day stoics (and the old ones, too, actually) cope with some real problems, like poverty on the verge of homelessness or grave illness, or both.

Drop political correctness for a moment and try to envision yourself as a powerful member of a powerful tribe. Can you do it?
— baker

I’m not a powerful member of a powerful tribe, but I can fantasize that I am. Are you suggesting that ancient stoics were all a bunch of daydreamers?

Read before replying.

That's in roundabout how the Stoic feels about himself, except that his reference frame isn't the powerful tribe, but Nature, the Divine.
— baker

Why would that be necessary to practice stoicism?

Because otherwise, you're just a poor sod in the gutter repeating some silly self-help soundbites to himself.

Sounds like something said by someone very powerful, someone on whom others depend for mercy. — baker

That might be because it was said by someone very powerful... But you know what? It's been used powerfully with people who are homeless and on the margins for many years and it often transfers effortlessly to them. People who slash themselves with broken bottles and run into oncoming cars as a way to manage emotional distress can change using this approach. Does if work for everyone? Of course not. But it does for many.

Sounds like something said by someone very powerful, someone on whom others depend for mercy.
— baker

That might be because it was said by someone very powerful... — Tom Storm

I've come rather late to this thread, and may have missed something. But you understand Epictetus was a slave, right? Slaves generally weren't considered powerful men in the Roman Empire of the first century C.E.

He was a slave of a functionary in the court of Nero. His master may have been a former slave himself.

Cool. All I know about him is that he became a venerated and influential teacher.

I'd love to see these modern-day stoics (and the old ones, too, actually) cope with some real problems, like poverty on the verge of homelessness or grave illness, or both. — baker

I don’t see how your sadistic appetite is relevant to our little chat.

That's in roundabout how the Stoic feels about himself, except that his reference frame isn't the powerful tribe, but Nature, the Divine.
— baker

Why would that be necessary to practice stoicism?
— praxis

Because otherwise, you're just a poor sod in the gutter repeating some silly self-help soundbites to himself. — baker

If we just look at the aspect of CBT, there is a large body of evidence that indicates it can be much more beneficial than silly self-help sound bites, even for gutter dwellers.

You’re not explaining your views so I’m assuming all this self-empowerment silliness amounts to nothing more than trolling.

But you understand Epictetus was a slave, right? Slaves generally weren't considered powerful men in the Roman Empire of the first century C.E. — Ciceronianus

Surely slaves were ambitious? Or at least our particular slave here was.

But here's the catch: How many Stoics actually attained ataraxia, aequanimitas?

- - -

That might be because it was said by someone very powerful... But you know what? It's been used powerfully with people who are homeless and on the margins for many years and it often transfers effortlessly to them. People who slash themselves with broken bottles and run into oncoming cars as a way to manage emotional distress can change using this approach. — Tom Storm

If you say so. I have no doubt that there can be post-traumatic growth.

But could a once well-to-do person who has fallen on hard times pick themselves up and rebuild their life using this reduced stoic philosophy?

Does if work for everyone? Of course not. But it does for many.

Why doesn't it work for everyone?

Why doesn't it work for everyone? — baker

Do any ideas work for everyone?

Do any ideas work for everyone? — Tom Storm

:up: My ideas should work for everyone. But they don't. :cry:

The connection to CBT is clear and I studied Albert Ellis, who developed the foundations of this intervention based on some ideas from Stoicism (particularly Epictetus) and others. As REBT or Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy. — Tom Storm

My problem with Ellis is that he was a staunch humanist, without ever explaining the foundation of his view. You just have to believe that life is worth living, and you just have to believe that you're a worthy human being, that's it, end of story.

To me, the whole of REBT (and CBT) hinges on this belief. And if one doesn't take it for granted, the therapy won't work.

One of the most powerful ideas I ever heard (when I heard it first 35 years ago) is - "It isn't what people say to you or do that upsets you, it is how you chose to react.' Simple and almost a homily on the surface, but so often when people 'go off the rails' it is because they have been unable to hold this in mind.

I think that this is actually a recipe for contempt of others. And people in fact feel better when they apply the motto you're mentioning -- but that's because they've found a way to despise the other person and to feel superior to them.
It's similar with forgiveness: it feels good because the forgiver has finally found a way to feel superior to the other person, has finally found a way to despise them.

Do any ideas work for everyone? — Tom Storm

Why is that so? Surely you, given your profession, must have some explanation for it. You can't just chalk it up to Mercury retrograde.

Interesting how you choose to see this. My experience over 30 years suggests no contempt and good results. There is no need for a worldview be it religion or humanism. Ideas from CBT work as a practical tools. That said, I am no disciple of Eliis' or any therapy.

Do any ideas work for everyone?
— Tom Storm

Why is that so? Surely you, given your profession, must have some explanation for it. You can't just chalk it up to Mercury retrograde. — baker

People don't always have explanations. But I do know that if someone has significant brain damage (which is very common in people with trauma histories - injuries/suicide attempts/overdoses) they may not be able to participate for reason of memory, and diminished capacity (for want of a better term).

Interesting thought-provoking challenges thrown up in this discussion - from different perspectives - will take time to chew over. In the meantime...returning to this:

How philosophy can save your life | Jules Evans | TEDxBreda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=XuwYvFlNGns

Somewhere at 12:30 he suddenly says SHIT-BRICKED, and this was beautiful in front of an academic audience.
— Shawn
:lol:
Short Story, surely.
So-called Shaky Stoics Shit-bricked on a Ship-wreck :cool: — Amity

At 12:32, Jules talks about the 3rd technique for creating 'ingrained habits', as potentially a way to change the way we live/think about our lives. The first two:
1. the maxim - written down in notebooks ( enchiridions) and repeated until memorised.
2. keeping a journal - to keep track of progress. At 12:14, advice from Epictetus re anger management - to count the days we've managed not to lose it. If 30 days, then "Yay, progress !".

3. fieldwork - not enough to theorise, need to get out there for practice.
At 12:45, Epictetus to his students. You may be very good in the lecture room but drag yourself out into practice and you're miserably ship-wrecked. ( or shit-bricked as @Shawn would have it !)
Need to challenge not just your thoughts but your behaviour.

If we have modern day CBT, the questions arises 'Do we still need Ancient Philosophy ?'
At 14:12, Jules gives 2 reasons.

Ending with:
Neither psychology or philosophy - ancient or modern - can give a single answer to the Big Q's like:
What's the meaning of life ? What does it mean to flourish ?

There will always be different and various views and arguments about ideas/theories/practices.
I agree with Jules when he states the importance of practical philosophy brought into schools, universities, companies.

Also, re @unenlightened previous comment:

We are natural stoics wrt the past. Good or bad, we take it as it went. — unenlightened

I was in 2 minds over this. I thought back to my 2 grandparents who fought in and survived WW1.
Both how they coped and also their families; parents and eventual wives/children.

There's a sense in - yes, they just got on with it. They had no choice or much say in the matter.
Perhaps a natural survival instinct is part of stoicism or v.v.
However, that isn't to say that there weren't negative effects which would linger and perhaps fester.
Perhaps the words 'stress' or 'post-traumatic disorder' didn't enter their vocabulary. But it existed.
The NHS didn't. And now, services are being reduced with remaining staff being stressed beyond belief.

Can we console ourselves with 'All's well that ends well' ?

...as some authors would describe the stoic inner citadel of methodological reasonings of how to go about life to attain this state one has to present to themselves every day a sort of creed in practice. This creed affirm the needless effort to seek out inner peace as seen through the every day affirmations of Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus. — Shawn

Re: daily presentations of a 'sort of creed'.
@Shawn
Perhaps you can clarify. Am I right in thinking you are referring to one of the techniques: the use of maxims or proverbs/mantras ?

1. the maxim - written down in notebooks ( enchiridions) and repeated until memorised. — Amity

I see these are shortcut reminders to the more in-depth philosophy - or in some cases, religion.
A quick pick-me up, if you like. Or words we live by - that colour our attitude. The way we look at life.
Our health and wellbeing.

Some can be a bit trite or even lead to more questions. 'Everything in moderation' - 'Know Thyself'.

The thing with CBT is that it is remedial, usually short-term and, I think, diagnosis driven ?
People are already suffering from problems.

So, here comes the maxim ingrained or engraved on my skull:
'Prevention is better than cure'.
So, perhaps a 'Practical Stoicism', as a whole philosophy of life - can bring benefits by mental and physical preparation ? A readiness, if you like.
Your thoughts ?
@Ciceronianus

I've come rather late to this thread, and may have missed something. — Ciceronianus

At last. What took you so long ? :wink:

Surely slaves were ambitious? Or at least our particular slave here was.

But here's the catch: How many Stoics actually attained ataraxia, aequanimitas? — baker

It was a peculiarity of the Roman institution of slavery (and perhaps ancient slavery in general) that slaves had very few rights and were deemed to be of very low social status, but could be freed and, once freed, could become wealthy and powerful mostly through their wealth, and sometimes their association with emperors as those who did the hard work of governing. But there's no evidence that Epictetus was "ambitious" in the sense we would use that word, I think.

Little enough is known of him, but what we do know suggests he wasn't. He was born a slave. He was eventually freed by his master, and taught philosophy in Rome until the Emperor Domitian (not a particularly tolerant man) banished all philosophers from the city. He was "lame" as they used to say, due to physical abuse while he was a slave, or disabled from birth (the sources disagree). After his banishment he went to Nicopolis in Greece and lived there for the rest of his life, teaching philosophy. The sources indicate he lived very simply, had very few possessions, never married, and eventually adopted the child of a friend who otherwise would have been abandoned. He wrote nothing that is known. His Discourses and Enchiridion were derived from notes of his teachings taken by his student Arrian.

He was honored and respected by some influential men of his time, including Marcus Aurelius, though Marcus never knew him or attended his lectures. That's about all we know.

The ancient Stoics often would elaborate on how a true Stoic Sage, who had perfected himself, would think and react to events, but it's recognized this was an ideal. I don't know if anyone ever became a Sage, but if they did I doubt it's something they would claim to be. History indicates that there were those who were professed members of the Stoic school who accepted their deaths at the hands of emperors they had angered with courage and tranquility, like Seneca and the senators known as the "Stoic Martyrs." There's a story about Epictetus that he was tortured while a slave and pointed out to his torturer that if he kept it up he'd break Epictetus' leg, and that once he broke it Epictetus said something like 'I told you so." I'm inclined to think that story is like the stories which were told regarding Christians who were tortured or martyred and how they acted while in pain or dying; i.e., not credible.

At last. What took you so long ? :wink: — Amity

I sometimes think I've said all I have to say about certain subjects. Then, suddenly, I think I haven't.

I'd love to see these modern-day stoics (and the old ones, too, actually) cope with some real problems, like poverty on the verge of homelessness or grave illness, or both. — baker

There's no doubt that it would be difficult to live a Stoic life. That may be why professed Stoics like Marcus Aurelius were inclined to engage in the discipline of constantly reminding themselves of what that would entail--in his case in his writings which have come to be known as the Meditations, but which were never intended for publication; most likely they were "spiritual exercises" as Pierre Hadot says.

I'd love to see these modern-day stoics (and the old ones, too, actually) cope with some real problems, like poverty on the verge of homelessness or grave illness, or both.
— baker

I don’t see how your sadistic appetite is relevant to our little chat. — praxis

*sigh*

When evaluating something that is proposed as a coping strategy, one has to test it to see how it performs under pressure.

If we just look at the aspect of CBT, there is a large body of evidence that indicates it can be much more beneficial than silly self-help sound bites, even for gutter dwellers.

You’re not explaining your views so I’m assuming all this self-empowerment silliness amounts to nothing more than trolling.

Read the god damn thread and keep up with the discussion, instead of me having to repeat to you everything over and over and reply to everything to you specifically.

Interesting how you choose to see this. My experience over 30 years suggests no contempt and good results. — Tom Storm

You and your three monkeys again.

Do any ideas work for everyone?
— Tom Storm

Why is that so? Surely you, given your profession, must have some explanation for it. You can't just chalk it up to Mercury retrograde.
— baker

People don't always have explanations. But I do know that if someone has significant brain damage (which is very common in people with trauma histories - injuries/suicide attempts/overdoses) they may not be able to participate for reason of memory, and diminished capacity (for want of a better term).

Do you think that CBT or REBT would work on someone like Prince Siddhattha? I think it wouldn't. Would you say the reason would be that he had some kind of brain damage?

Do you think that CBT or REBT would work on someone like Prince Siddhattha? I think it wouldn't. Would you say the reason would be that he had some kind of brain damage? — baker

Clumsy. I have no knowledge of religious figures like the Buddha, but brain damage might explain them. But no - when I highlighted that point it was to find you one example of people who might not benefit. .

You and your three monkeys again. — baker

They are actually your three wise monkey's again. And I guess the interpretation of this favored line of yours is an attempt to suggest that I am not seeing the full picture. Presumably through some kind of selective blindness. Is this a smear, or was your intent less cynical than it appears?

Or maybe it was just an expression of your unwillingness to trust another person's experience on the internet? I understand. You have no idea who I am and what I know, so it's kind of a random statement. If I have your intent correct, I would have probably asked instead - "How do you know that you are not cherry picking your results here?" My answer would be - evidence over three decades. Now this doesn't have to satisfy you and nor should it. And you can't investigate it further as you won't have scrutiny of the work.

Gary Cooper would never be cynical as you sometimes appear to be. Maybe you need to turn in your little tin sheriff's badge and be the deputy instead.

Gary Cooper would never be cynical as you sometimes appear to be. Maybe you need to turn in your little tin sheriff's badge and be the deputy instead. — Tom Storm

:clap: