Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?

Lindsay

I have a question I would like to share and see what your thoughts are n the topic.

The Question is: "Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?"

The following are my thoughts on this question:

I strongly believe in both. Each of these theories/concepts have their own pro’s and con’s. Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” So, in hindsight, they’re complete opposites when you look at the meanings behind the terms.
However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions.
So this is where the interesting part slides in from backstage. Since I wholeheartedly believe that these aspects in each of these concepts need each other to co-exist in our world in this universe as we know it to be. So based on my own experiences, I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will.
So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?
Has to be a mystery for now.

So, a penny for your thoughts on this question?

View Answer

Manuel

I think the word "fate" can be used to describe certain situations, as in "he was fated to get that job" or meet a person or die. But then if this concept is thought of literally, it seems as if you are attributing to the universe a kind of "giving a damn", for lack of a better word. I don't think it does.

Free will is always very, very hard. Like many others have said, I think it can become too complicated that we think ourselves into serious paradoxes. Its more coherent to me to think of free will as, say, me typing these words now (as opposed to me not replying to the OP at all) or even choosing different words to express these ideas than to think of the topic that we are breaking the laws of nature somehow.

But this last topic can be debated till' the end of time. I used to not believe in free will, so I see both sides of the argument.

Interesting post and if it makes sense to you to think of fate and free will as being necessary, then that's what matters.

PoeticUniverse

We know that the will is usually free to operate, but that doesn't make one 'free' in any deep and non-trivial sense. The will is fixed to what one's brain repertoire has come to be up to that moment. The fixed will is the brain using its knowledge to provide future.

Though learning and experience we may enlarge the depth and range of our successive fixed wills through our ongoing choices if we are not truly too stuck to learn, but, again, the fixed will is ever consistent with who we've come to be. There is no being 'free' of the will; it does as it must.

The universe does us, not some other way around such as we somehow being mini first causes with no input. You will find that no one can ever really say what the 'free' in 'free will' is supposed to be free of, but for coercion, which, too, would have been determined.

While occasional 'random' or chemical brain mistakes would make events come out differently than they were meant to, this doesn't help the will but hurts it.

I have been describing a linear mode of time, but a block universe of Fate would do the same.

InPitzotl

Now, Fate is defined as: “the development of events beyond a person’s control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.” And, as for Free-Will, this is defined as: “the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” — Lindsay

Generically, I reject fate outright. I'm agnostic about determinism. And I'm agnostic about free will. This definition of fate roughly fits into the concept of fate that I reject. This particular definition of free will I have conceptual issues with, requisite to fit my free will agnosticism. So I don't quite mesh well with the fate/free will ying/yang concept here.

Roughly speaking, I view fate as the idea that some future event will occur regardless of what happens; this in stark contrast to determinism, which is the idea that some future event will occur because of what happens. Determinism is perfectly viable for me; fate just seems silly (to me).

Regarding the notion of free will here, I'm not much of a "principle of alternate possibilities" type of guy... this kind of makes the "necessity" angle tough to speak to (if I act at my own discretion, I would still necessarily do what I do; think from a time perspective... if I act of my free will tomorrow at this exact time, regardless of what "free will" means; then two days from now there's only one thing I could have done at that time, and tomorrow that is the thing I necessarily would do, since there's no such thing as an actual event other than the event that occurs... like I said, I'm not much of a PAP guy).

180 Proof

The Question is: "Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?" — Lindsay

It must be my fate to "believe in" free will.

Nils Loc

Determinism seems like it has less the connotative religious/mythic baggage than fate. Fate sounds like there some iffy precognition (or self-fulfilling prophecy) involved, as if what is fated must be because so and so thinks... Whereas, determinism, is just a pinball process running in time according to the laws of nature and the outcome is contingent on the turning of many other things. Maybe determinism allows for more of it could've been otherwise.

It's probably healthier to believe in some kind of free will. All I need to do is believe and voila, like Baron von Munchausen hoisting himself up by his pony tail in the swamp, I'll levitate out of my depressing existence. Think positive thoughts and take flight with the metaphysical placebo.

Present awareness

The idea of fate, is based on hindsight. Once something has happened, it’s easy to say that it was destined to happen because, it has already happened.

Free will is based on the idea of choice. If you come to a fork in the road, you may choose to go left or right. Only AFTER you have made your choice may it be said that you were destined to make that choice!

It doesn’t really matter what a person believes though, because life goes on regardless.

Lindsay

↪Manuel

I can definitely see your point Manuel, it can definitely be debated for an infinite amount of time, I hear you on that. But I do think that, metaphysically, the universe is an living entity in itself, so I believe that there are certain things that it can do beyond our human understanding.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this one. But thank you for being so civil about it, not many people would be. This is the first post I've started so I appreciate that. :smile:

Lindsay

↪PoeticUniverse

That post is very interesting and deep. I had to read that a few times to understand what your point was, and I'm not stupid. You just expressed your opinion in a way that makes it sound like you are an agent of the universe contingent upon one request: for you to be truly and fully FREE. I believe we all want that. At least, those of us not trapped in the metaphorical "Matrix" of our lives. For lack of intelligent language on purpose, PoeticUniverse, you are #WOKE :smile: :100:

Lindsay

↪180 Proof

:lol: :lol: That was perfect!

Lindsay

↪Nils Loc

What's the most significant thing here (in general, not this forum specifically) is that, you're satisfied and happy with that choice you're happy with in what you believe in, not just because it sounds like a "more healthy decision". You're entitled to feel and believe whatever you want. Don't let anyone tell you any differently. Just be civil in discussions about it, nobody likes a trolling asshat. :eyes: :100: :up:

Lindsay

↪Present awareness

I understand your point, and I agree to a certain extent. I'm sure that works for many people. But for me, I need to believe in both for personal mental health reasons. If I didn't believe, It's highly likely I might be dead by now. But everyone lives different lives and has different perspectives and different issues, so when it really comes down to it, everyone believes what they want to believe: whether that's one or the other, both, or neither.

Manuel

so I believe that there are certain things that it can do beyond our human understanding. — Lindsay

That has to be true. There's no other realistic alternative, I think.

But thank you for being so civil about it, not many people would be. This is the first post I've started so I appreciate that. — Lindsay

Sure! :cool:

Tobias

However, I believe in both, because, they are polar opposites just like yin and yang is. One side is more abstract than the other. It’s subversive that Fate is all about giving up control and trusting that the universe has all the answers and everything is up to “Fate” in itself, which essentially means you have no control over your own life, because, it was pretty much already been written since the day you were conceived...or even perhaps sooner. While on the other hand we have “Free-Will”, which puts YOU in the driver’s seat; you are what makes your life what it is now and where it will be going in the future, and the how and the why is completely up to you...make your own life as it is based on your decisions/choices and actions. — Lindsay

I do not think one of them is more abstract. Fate is actually pretty concrete. It is usually referred to as 'eterminism', The idea that our actions are already deterimined. It rests on a number of premisses. One: we are material beings and just ike any other material beings, we are suceptible to forces impinging upon us. Just like a frog instinctively lashes out its tongue when a small moving blot triggers its retina, a man or woman takes a course of action detemined by all the impulses implay,, triggering your brain which is wired in a certain way based on past experiences. Just like everything else in nature our course of action is determined, we only put those actions into words, that is all. It is very concrete. I do agree with you there are layers though. In our immediate experience we cannot otherwise but conceive our actoons in terms of choice, and therefore blame, merit, resentment etc.

I feel that both is necessary for the world to keep spinning. You can’t have Free-Will without Fate having dictated saying that it is allowed to exist as an idea at all. And you can’t have Fate without Free-Will, because Fate itself needs information of what kinds of actions you take and decisions you make to get to know you better in order to better decide what parts of your life that Fate adopts as some things about yourself that will never change, and the things that CAN CHANGE is up to your ability of having Free-Will. — Lindsay

You personify fate, but fate does not have a plan. It did not dictae anything. For if that were true, than free will would be logically prior, because it would than have to have freely decided. If not, and if fate was also susceptible to fate, than the idea leads to an infinite regress and is uninformative. The problem is we have no idea what things we can change and what not. To a determinist, every 'choice' you make can be explained by a combination of your character traits and the myriad of impulses influencing your brain at every given time. None of which you have chosen.

So they are polar opposites, but they also thread into one another like two layers of corsets/spanx. Basically, they WORK TOGETHER without most of us even realizing that’s what is happening at the time. I wonder to myself at times, how common is it that people ponder that question highlighted above? And why have I never heard of people talking about them at the same time instead of just one or the other?
Has to be a mystery for now. — Lindsay

Ohh, when I was a student I used to accost my profrssors of law and philosophy and ask them about free will and what possibilities we have for blame, guilt and punishment. In law chocie is pivotal so I thought they would think about it. they did not seem very interested in the questiion. Now though, many people talk about it. I would urge you to look into compatibilism, for instance here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/#:~:text=Compatibilism%20is%20the%20thesis%20that,between%20moral%20responsibility%20and%20determinism.

I think I have found an answer to the problem of free will, not a definitive answer of course, just an answer I am satisfied with. This answer is not along Yin Yang lines, because tey form a unity, but an answer that points to a disunity. we know we have no free will, yet, we cannot ignore the fundamental experience of having it. so we have free well and we have not free will. Well that is the gst in a nurshall. Explore yourself, and enjoy the ride.

regards,
Tobias

Apollodorus

But I do think that, metaphysically, the universe is an living entity in itself, so I believe that there are certain things that it can do beyond our human understanding. — Lindsay

I think the universe would be quite able to do things that are beyond our human understanding even without it being a living entity.

Though it possibly is a living entity, it is difficult to determine in what sense. And given the materialistic society and culture we currently live in, not many think of the universe, let alone of it as a living being.

But I agree that both fate and free will play a part in human existence.

180 Proof

It's probably healthier to believe in some kind of free will. All I need to do is believe and [v]oila, like Baron von Munchausen hoisting himself up by his pony tail in the swamp, I'll levitate out of my depressing existence. Think positive thoughts and take flight with the metaphysical placebo. — Nils Loc

Amor fati! :smirk: :up:

Yohan

?

↪Lindsay

I am thinking of free will as the ability to be creative.
Creativity = bringing something new into existence?
Is it possible to bring something new into existence?
Bring from where? and to where?
New: not existing before. Is there anything that has never existed before? How could we know?
Does creativity mean bringing something new into existence from nothing?
Can something come from nothing? Is 'nothing' a word with no referent?

Edit: More on point: Free will = creating one's destiny? Fate = one's latent creative potential and limitations?

Varde

It's half and half.

Is the cup half empty or is it half full?

Tobias

It's probably healthier to believe in some kind of free will. All I need to do is believe and whoila, like Baron von Munchausen hoisting himself up by his pony tail in the swamp, I'll levitate out of my depressing existence. Think positive thoughts and take flight with the metaphysical placebo. — Nils Loc

It might be healthier, but when one knows it is a matter of belief, the existential question lingers. In juging for instance it seems disingenious to say: "well I believe you acted ot of free will, because it is healther to believe in it, even though deep down I know you had no choice". We then punish based upon a reason one finds doubtful. Moreover, perhaps it is healther for ones own well being to believe in God, however that has not stopped the secularization of society.

Artemis

↪Lindsay

I wanted to believe in free will for a looong time. I'll have to look up the article, but then I read an explanation that turned my understanding upside down. Essentially, free will, as it is generally conceptualized in contrast to determinism is not only illogical, it's also undesirable.

Free will, free from your past, your experiences, your genetic make-up and thus your brain structure and capacity to reason... in short, without anything that could actually inform your decision would be totally and completely random. Your actions would just be random firings that made no sense and could be anything at all. You'd be walking around the world clucking like a chicken, trying to eat tree bark, and poking people in the eyeballs for no rhyme or reason.

What people typically want out of this debate is some sense of control and choice in their lives. They think, if my life is determined, I don't have a choice. But really, a completely random and free will is the scenario in which you don't have a choice or control.

In a determined universe, it may be pregiven how much insight you have, how well you're able to reason, etc. But you're still actually doing the reasoning. Your capacity to reason and choose is not diminished by the fact that, for example, you evolved to be able to reason.

TheMadFool

I chose my fate. :cool:

Ken Edwards

I go with Lindsay.

I think there are times in our discussions when we do not keep in mind the facts of our own basic mental existence including our instincts.

We are born with our instincts. All men have basically the same instincts. Instincts exist because they promote survival.

As regards to free will. I have never known a person that did not behave as if he had free will. Our attitude toward freewill is instinctive and is part of our mental heritage.

In my own mind I am utterly confident that I have free will.

I cannot even begin to imagine how I might act if I did not have free will.

And yet logically it is obvious that free will does not and cannot exist. I have read many rational discussions that are adamant on that point.

Thus I have a strong belief that free will cannot exist. I also have a strong instinct that free will does exist.

Men obey their instincts. Men do not obey their beliefs.

So where does that leave us?

I don't know. I was hoping that you might know.

As for fate, Fate does not exist there is no such thing as fate. It does exist in sort of a ghostly form as complex arrengements of words.

Ken Edwards

180 Proof

I chose my fate. :cool: — TheMadFool

Yeah, we are fated to "choose our fate". :up:

TheMadFool

Yeah, we are fated to "chose our fate". :up: — 180 Proof

What's the difference between fate, determinism, and destiny?

180 Proof

What's the difference between fate, determinism, and destiny? — TheMadFool

Natality, causality and oblivion.

TheMadFool

Natality, causality and oblivion. — 180 Proof

So fate has something to do with our birth, determinism is ultimately about cause and effect, our destiny is to wink out of existence?

180 Proof

↪TheMadFool

:smirk:

TheMadFool

:flower:

TheMadFool

Fate vs. Free will.

It usually works like this: If anything good happens to you then you're the one who brought that about (free will). If something bad happens, it isn't because of you, it's fate [fate + free will].

Other possibilities:

1. Whether good/bad things happen to you, it's because of you [free will only].

2. Whether good/bad things happen to you, it's because of fate [fate only].

3. If good things happen to you, it's fate and if bad things happen to you, it's because of you [free will + fate].

4. Whether good/bad things happen to you, it's not because of fate and it's not because of you [neither free will nor fate].

I need help with 4.

Ken Edwards

The phrase "good/bad things happen to you" is too generalized for me. Good and bad are vague, wishy-washy terms that drift with the tide and shift around and have little meaning.

Each good thing and each bad thing that happens to you is different and has a different cause and needs to be examined individually.

Most of the hundreds of things that happen to you in a day are neither good nor bad or perhaps they may be simultaneously good and bad. Like neckties improve your image but also choke you to death. Plus some things judged to be good may actually be bad for you and vice versa. Plus you are not even consciously aware of most of the things that happen to you like wasp stings you are always aware of but mosquito bites sometimes you are and sometimes you are not.

And you can apply free will only to things that you are consciously aware of.

Hermeticus

For the most part, both free-will and determinism appear to me as little more than word games.

“the development of events beyond a person’s control” — Lindsay

Do I experience such things? Yes. Constantly.

“the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.” — Lindsay

Do I experience such things? Yes. Constantly.

At which point do these definitions contradict each other? I think they're very complementary.
Fate is what we encounter in life. Free-will is how we deal with these encounters. We're in constant interaction with our surroundings. We act on the world and are acted upon by the world. As you fittingly name Ying and Yang - fate and will are but an exchange between the perceived self and the rest of the world. Upon second glance we may even realize that fate is simply the amassed free-will of everything that isn't me.

Some may argue that our decisions are based on our experience and that our experience is decided by fate. This is true. But does it eliminate the possibility of free will? It doesn't. I am the living proof of it - although my experience through fate has taught me that buying lottery tickets is a pointless endeavor, I buy a lottery ticket every Christmas to defy fate and prove to the world my free-will.

Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?

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