Rampant industrialization and oppression plagued anticapitalist economies as well as capitalist economies during the 20th century. Exploitation, injustice, and mass destruction have plagued human civilization from the beginning. The roots of the problem go deeper than easy generalizations about capitalist ideology and capitalist modes of organization, though of course the negative effects of inadequate regulation and unjust policy are increasingly obvious worldwide in our times, just as capitalism in various forms has finally covered the globe.We're now beginning to pay the price of centuries of suffering and exploitation of generations of oppressed and marginalized people by capitalism and liberalism. — baker
Given the state of things, I don't think it makes sense for anyone to play along as if all is well. All is not well. Far from it.So you think it makes perfect sense to expect the disenfranchized to play along as if all was well?? — baker
Who isn't one of these people nowadays? I doubt you could use that criterion to distinguish COVID-vaccine receivers from COVID-vaccine refusers, though it may have some statistical weight.Disenfranchized people and those on the verge of disenfranchizement are less likely to cooperate with the government's agenda and with society at large. — baker
Well, about 115,000 people in the US shot each year. About one person in 3000. They don't all die. If 750,000 dead of Covid in 19 months isn't a reason for definite action, then why gun control? Why police at all? Why any concern at all about shootings? After all, your chances of being shot are not-so-high.What are the odds of you dying from covid if you are vaccinated? (They're miniscule) — Bartricks
Yes, I can acknowledge genuine concerns about vaccine safety in light of the thrombosis issue. But I’d trust the boards and management and scientists at these pharma companies a long while before I trusted conspiracy-mongering internet posters or their lunatic fringe antivaxer cheer squad. — Wayfarer
But as our soldiers risk their lives for the rest of us, we must take that individual risk for the good of all. — Athena
Our refusal to take the risk to protect others means we can be the carrier who infects others, leading to their suffering, their possible long-term poor health, and possibly their death. — Athena
Does a valuable member of society put everyone else at risk? — Athena
What is the honor of behaving as a soldier who flees to save his own life? — Athena
Medicine, in case you haven’t noticed, is a complex and difficult subject. As a result, it’s an area where it’s a bad idea to leave people entirely to their own devices. The clamor for unproven treatments like taking hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin reminds us why we require that physicians be licensed and drugs be approved, rather than leaving it up to the public to decide who’s qualified and which medication is safe and effective.
So you have to wonder why anyone would consider it a good idea when Florida’s surgeon general urged people to downplay medical advice on vaccines and rely on their “intuition and sensibilities.”
Finally, the most contentious area in this whole argument involves vaccine and mask requirements for schools. And in this area, opponents of mandates aren’t making decisions for themselves — they’re making decisions for their children, who have rights of their own and aren’t simply their parents’ property.
Point me to the person I hurt by refusing this vaccine, and I will take responsibility. — Tzeentch
— Tzeentch
Point me to the person I hurt by refusing this vaccine, and I will take responsibility. But you cannot, because likely there are none, and I won't accept your claim to my body on the basis of empty accusations. — Tzeentch
What I assume you consider valuable members of society put everyone else at risk every day. They step in cars, they don't get their flu shots, they procreate, they smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, etc.
To cherry-pick one particular risk and assign it so much weight is completely inconsistent and unconvincing. — Tzeentch
War is a pointless, tragic thing. Honor is the carrot "society" has used for centuries to lure its young men into an untimely death for the benefit of the few. The individual shouldn't accept to be sacrificed on the altar of the collective; not in war, not in a pandemic. — Tzeentch
Iraq WMD →→Iraq War
Is there a pattern here or is it just me? — TheMadFool
People who refuse to get vaccinated are holding us all hostage. — Athena
... people think their liberty comes first and all of us are paying a price for that. — Athena
How do you take responsibility for the skyrocketing infection rate that has returned us to the worst of times? — Athena
If you got covid and had to be hospitalized... — Athena
Driving is a serious responsibility, especially when I have passengers. I make every effort to do so responsibly and that is equal to getting vaccinated. — Athena
We took our democracy for granted and this was a mistake. — Athena
We took our military superiority for granted and this may have been a mistake? — Athena
You do realize you live within the web of such decisions 24/7/365, yes? - and that if you did not likely you and your whole family would have died miserably a long time ago. The simple truth is that you really have no idea what you're writing about, your intellectual efforts about the same import as a dog compulsively scratching an itch.but I disagree that one can simply decide for another what individual risks they should or shouldn't take, more so because it concerns their most valuable human right: that of autonomy over their own body. — Tzeentch
Misinformation spreads a lot faster than it used to. — John McMannis
And now you are taking your liberties and human rights for granted, and in fact squandering them for the promise of safety. That is most certainly a mistake; a Trojan horse. — Tzeentch
Rampant industrialization and oppression plagued anticapitalist economies as well as capitalist economies during the 20th century. Exploitation, injustice, and mass destruction have plagued human civilization from the beginning. The roots of the problem go deeper than easy generalizations about capitalist ideology and capitalist modes of organization, though of course the negative effects of inadequate regulation and unjust policy are increasingly obvious worldwide in our times, just as capitalism in various forms has finally covered the globe.
In the last couple decades it's become harder even for relatively privileged people in relatively privileged regions to deny, to rationalize, or to ignore the acceleration of ecological instability and socioeconomic injustice. But it seems clear that the people of Earth have been paying the price of irrational and inhumane policy for a long time. — Cabbage Farmer
People who are vaccinated still contract and transmit the virus, and to think things would go back to normal if everyone were vaccinated is an illusion. This is all about control.
— Tzeentch
Vaccinated people develop infections, but they don't usually get critically ill. — frank
Why do you all think life is better in the US than in many places where people fear for their lives and do you think we will become as those other countries? — Athena
I don't need to take responsibility, because I am not responsible. — Tzeentch
Stability comes and goes in human social groups. Humans make large scale groups that can last for centuries. It's usually most stable near urban centers which act like population hubs.
Lots of things can result in social breakdown, like invasions, war, famine, natural disasters, and uprisings. Those things will tear the US down eventually, but not probably not in our lifetimes. — frank
A big concern is if we do not stop the spread of the virus it will continue to mutate and then the vaccine may become completely ineffective. — Athena
↪Athena The dilemma is about safety versus liberty, the boundaries we put on those in power; it is about the free press, the independence of academia and the growing power of multinationals.
It hardly gets more political than this, and science provides no answers to any of these dilemmas.
Maybe you believe the narrative that there is no moral dilemma, that safety provides a limitless mandate for the use of power and the breaching of human rights, and that the power of science in the hand of our omnibenevolent and incorruptable governments ran by philantropists will lead us to the promised land. A road to hell, to be sure. — Tzeentch
We could. I think it's basically the same thing that gives a wolfpack stability (got an awesome book recommendation about that). — frank
According to tradition, on April 21, 753 B.C., Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, found Rome on the site where they were suckled by a she-wolf as orphaned infants. According to the legend, Romulus and Remus were the sons of Rhea Silvia, the daughter of King Numitor of Alba Longa. ...
Rome founded - HISTORY — History Channel
This thread follows the Anti-vaccination. Those of us who believe everyone should be vaccinated and those of us who believe this is the government's effort to control us and that we will lose our liberty if we don't fight against our government, are at each other's throats. — Athena
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