Are you saying we should vote a third party or not bother voting at all and get more engaged in local stuff? You both seem not to like either party much so what would you recommend the average person do? — John McMannis
I'm hoping to become more involved myself but not sure where to start. — John McMannis
Anyone who wants to deny activism as the essential part of progress should simply be ignored. — Xtrix
It's a vote against the Republican party, who are even worse. — Xtrix
This is why there's such a sense of hopelessness, because even though people recognize the problems they feel they can't do anything about it, being just one person. This is by design. — Xtrix
The most powerful people on earth are not individualists, they're socialists. — Xtrix
Don't let yourself be pulled into this demonizing of collectivism, nor be fooled by the illusion of connection pushed by social media companies. — Xtrix
What to do? Break that cycle, and more importantly, break it from the left (the democrats are not a left party - they are a conservative party, just FYI). If that means not voting, so be it. People like Xtrix will try to hold you hostage and gaslight you: if you don't vote for the democrats, the republicans will come into power. But it's farce. If you vote for the democrats, the republicans will come into power anyway, because the function of the democratic party is defuse left energy (which the republican party can't do), and then, one that's done, actively pave the way for republican victories after that. That's their objective role in American political life. They're the rear-guard of republican political power. — StreetlightX
Far more interesting that anything the Democrats have been doing is workers strikes all over the US. Capitalism is a wage relation, and it is over wages and workplace rights that anything will be won. — StreetlightX
Discuss your wages with your fellow workers. Join your union. Build networks of worker solidarity. Never hate on the poor or the uneducated, not matter how silly their antics can be. Power is always the enemy. Know that bosses are not your friends. Keep yourself informed. Refuse, at all costs, the fake distinction between liberal and conservative. Educate yourself, and, just casually, those around you when the opportunity arises. — StreetlightX
Also for the love of God never call yourself an activist. An activist is someone too non-committal and pussy to call themselves a socialist outright. Hitler's brownshirts were activists. 'Activism' is liberal code for: ineffective tinkerer of the status quo. — StreetlightX
Maybe pick a couple of books - Thomas Frank's Listen, Liberal! is probably one of the better antidotes to Blue MAGA people like Xtrix. Or even something like Red State Revolt, which shows how worker movements can and do flourish in so-called red states. Or even Chris Hedges, who is a nice popular writer on these topics: https://www.amazon.com/America-Farewell-Tour-Chris-Hedges/dp/1501152688/ — StreetlightX
If you ever come across someone pretending to be non-partisan in regards to a two-party fight, and yet they claim one of the parties is a shill for the other, that person is a shill for the party they did not attack. — James Riley
Become an activist. Educate yourself and others, organize with others. Identify programs you want and push for them. This is done all the time, if you look around. It was especially prevalent in the 60s, and much of the progress we see today comes from exactly those movements. — Xtrix
The point is to continuously create and push for programs you want, on the national, state, and local level. Anyone who wants to deny activism as the essential part of progress should simply be ignored. — Xtrix
This does make sense to me. In other words just vote against Trump or people like him but don't make a big deal about it and don't pretend that joe biden is so great? That's kind of where I am at in how I feel about them but yet pretty pessimistic about anything big changing in my life.As for voting: there are two political parties in the United States. As Noam Chomsky has mentioned, and I agree with, an activist should take two minutes to see which candidate is worse, and vote against that candidate -- then get back to the important work of educating and organizing. Voting is important, but hardly any more important than those two minutes. You should do it, then move on. Not voting, or voting third party in a swing state, is helping the worse candidate succeed -- period. That's just arithmetic. Idealists and purists simply cannot understand this, so there's no use arguing over it. But the choice is a simple one. It's not an endorsement of the Democratic party, or Joe Biden. It's a vote against the Republican party, who are even worse. Those who want to claim the Republicans and Democrats are the same are, likewise, deluding themselves. — Xtrix
Most importantly is to talk with other people. It's next to impossible to do it all yourself, especially when there are plenty of other responsibilities one has in life. This idea of individualism is foisted upon us to keep us isolated. This is why there's such a sense of hopelessness, because even though people recognize the problems they feel they can't do anything about it, being just one person. This is by design. The most powerful people on earth are not individualists, they're socialists. They coordinate with their class all the time to maintain their power, and they always look after each other. The middle and working classes have been conditioned to fear and hate their own members, but they can do the same. Don't let yourself be pulled into this demonizing of collectivism, nor be fooled by the illusion of connection pushed by social media companies. There's a real world out there, with real people, and it's worth joining. — Xtrix
Do you mean like what Streetlightx said or something else? Are you saying he is a shill for the republican party because he attacked the democrats? — John McMannis
But maybe it's better to let the republicans take over so that people fight back against it? — John McMannis
But I do think that it's better in other ways to have biden in office even though not much seems to be happening. Maybe that just makes it worse, I don't know. It's really confusing to me. I think this is why a lot of people don't vote haha — John McMannis
Why? This seems a lot harder than voting and stuff, to me anyway. If I could vote for a different CEO I would, but that's not how it works. If I ask for more money, they can just can my ass. I live in a right to work state, so they're not big fans of workplace rights and unions. I guess I could just quit if I really hated it, but it's hard to get other work.
We will win because our timescales are geographic!
Liberals like our blue MAGA friends in this thread have a time-horizon of whatever next big political conference is coming up, organized by the powers that be as they ferry themselves there in jets and private cars. — StreetlightX
If that’s the case, we’re toast. So it’s hopeless. — Xtrix
Your lack of imagination is not an indictment on hope. — StreetlightX
Pepetuating a cycle of planetary death while pretending to do the opposite is less so. — StreetlightX
My post history is literally open for all to see. — StreetlightX
It's worth asking what it says about someone though, who cannot even fathom the idea that a critque of the democrats could be motivated by anything other than some conspiritorial foreign-agent red-scaring. — StreetlightX
Ignore away. — StreetlightX
Geez. I like what you're saying but what if activism is just a phony thing that doesn't really accomplish anything? Not saying I believe that but what if? — John McMannis
Is this in reference to the other response I got from street light? Because he is saying the opposite almost. What if we just take away the word activism and just say fighting and organizing and stuff, like you're saying. I think you both agree with that but cal it different things. — John McMannis
This does make sense to me. In other words just vote against Trump or people like him but don't make a big deal about it and don't pretend that joe biden is so great? That's kind of where I am at in how I feel about them but yet pretty pessimistic about anything big changing in my life. — John McMannis
I'll definitely take this advice. Any suggestions on how best to get involved locally or how to break into the conversation with people about this stuff? It's not so easy for me. — John McMannis
I have a time horizon of 10-20 years, in which we need to transform both the energy sector and agriculture if we want to survive. We don’t have 100 years to end neo-feudalism. If you’re not factoring that in you’re simply not serious.
True, having democrats or progressives in office may accomplish nothing or even make things worse. If that’s the case, we’re toast. So it’s hopeless. — Xtrix
Your lack of imagination is not an indictment on hope. — StreetlightX
The idea that the U.S. has some real and substantial problems, and that the two parties are indistinguishable from a certain perspective, has merit. But if those problems and the lack of distinction are simply tools being used to further undermine and divide, without the offer of a viable, constructive criticism, then it’s easier to flush him down the toilet. — James Riley
Unfortunately I'm as bad a role model and as immature as he is in terms of communication — Xtrix
I figure them as a shill for the side they ignore. — James Riley
He'll claim I'm a shill for the Democrats. — Xtrix
Yeah, but I don't seem him going after the Republicans — James Riley
The question is:. can you accept that American democracy has been subverted to create a super wealthy class? Can you accept that the US military has been used to cement this same anti-egalitarian approach throughout the world?
Did you even know that when you drink cheap coffee, you're imbibing the fruits of hard nosed exploitation connected to the same principles? — frank
When I say "accept", I mean can you engage the subverted system in front of you and try to work within it to help those who can be helped? — frank
And put off the revolution until tomorrow? — frank
If so, then support Biden and continue on. — frank
Likewise, I'm sure. :up: — James Riley
On climate change, Republicans say it's a hoax, Democrats say it's a problem. The Biden administration has appointed a Native American as secretary of interior, for example -- a very good move. They've re-established National monuments and regulations weakened under Trump, and put a moratorium on drilling on public lands. None of this goes far enough, but compare to the Trump administration when Scott Pruitt, an oil lobbyist, was the head of the EPA and Ryan Zinke, a former board member of a pipeline company, was head of the Interior. — Xtrix
The new president quickly announced a moratorium on the sale of drilling leases while the Interior Department conducted a review of the federal oil and gas program. But in the meantime, Biden’s Interior Department has been approving drilling permits for previously sold leases at a fast clip. It approved more than 2,100 permits in his first six months, a pace that surpasses monthly approvals during most of Trump’s presidency, according to the AP.
I just told you that it doesn't really matter much who you vote for, not wrt fundamentals. — frank
If you really understood that, then why are you up in arms about Republicans? Like they're the problem? — frank
I'm not being hyperbolic. — frank
I understand that there's a lot of that in social media, so truth isn't a priority in most of what people say. Just to help clarify. I'm speaking as straight as I can. — frank
Your shitty fucking democrat party is a shitty fucking party and supporting them will kill this planet — StreetlightX
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