okay.

Seems like none of you guys really like each other much, so I don't want to get in the middle.

I just choose not to suppport the party that staves off all efforts to stop this from happening. — StreetlightX

What efforts? DOH! :rofl: What single thing have you done to stop the Republican party from getting into office? What party (if not the Democrats) has done anything to stop the Republican party from getting into office? You've walked yourself into a corner and slapped yourself. Your shill is showing.

Same same. I just choose not to suppport the party that staves off all efforts to stop this from happening. — StreetlightX

Which in a two-party system, means working against efforts to stop it from happening.

"Red button leads to disaster. But I won't push the blue button."

Incredible logic. I wonder what most union organizers, environmentalists, and civil rights groups think about this.

Solution: do nothing. Don't vote. Ensure the worst happens -- so this way you feel better.

, means working against efforts to stop it from happening. — Xtrix

Right, so, working against the democratic party. Got it.

Ensure the worst happens — Xtrix

Nah, I would rather not support the democratic party.

Seems like none of you guys really like each other much, so I don't want to get in the middle. — John McMannis

He doesn't like me because I've outed him and exposed his cover. I don't like him because he's a shill for the Republican party, trying to sew division and hatred among Americans. People like him are doing a good job, and here we are.

Right, so, working against the democratic party. Got it. — StreetlightX

And thus helping the worst party get into office. I guess that'll change the two-party system!

Ensure the worst happens
— Xtrix

Nah, I would rather not support the democratic party. — StreetlightX

So now the democrats are the worst party. Got it. If you believe that, then you're right: vote Republican.

guess that'll change the two-party system! — Xtrix

As distinct from literally supporting the two-party system.

If we're too ignorant to understand which party is a greater impediment to the values we claim to hold, then it's worth sitting out and watching. 3 Supreme Court justices later -- which will indisputably make it HARDER for progressive programs to get through for decades to come -- and still "no difference."

Imagine being this confused.

As distinct from literally supporting the two-party system. — StreetlightX

Yes, you want a one party system. We get that. Fascists white nationalist want a one party system. You know, like your boy Putin has.

As distinct from literally supporting the two-party system. — StreetlightX

I guess those who hold jobs support capitalism, as well. Oh if only I could live in idealistic fantasy.

He doesn't like me because I've outed him and exposed his cover. — James Riley

Ok.

It seems to me that the real difference is just whether we should vote at all, right? Street says no because both parties are corrupt and that is supporting the system, and Xrix says we should vote for the party that will be less in the way of our goals. Am I right about this or way off?

If we're too ignorant to understand which party is a greater impediment to the values we claim to hold — Xtrix

Both parties, in cahoots with one another. I realize this is really hard to get your head around because you're basically an abuse victim with Stockholm syndrome, but sometimes you have to go hard with trauma victims.

It seems to me that the real difference is just whether we should vote at all, right? — John McMannis

Not just voting. I think both parties ought to be actively opposed and called out at every point. I'm not against voting. Vote how you like. But be aware of what it is you're voting for, and the effects it will have. I'm about dispelling illusions that people like to tell themselves.

If we're too ignorant to understand which party is a greater impediment to the values we claim to hold
— Xtrix

Both parties, in cahoots with one another. — StreetlightX

So now it's back to both parties being an equal impediment. The solution being...? Not to vote, I presume.

I'm sorry you can't make simple distinctions -- I realize this would be too difficult. Given you don't live here, I guess it's not worth putting any thought into.

So now it's back to both parties being an equal impediment. — Xtrix

The democratic party functions as one-half of a two-part cycle whose overall effect is to ruin lives for everyone. — StreetlightX

I'll keep quoting this so long as you need dude. Take your time. I'll even type slow for you. I'm a big supporter of helping people with learning disabilities.

I think both parties ought to be actively opposed and called out at every point. — StreetlightX

How heroic. You forgot to mention: "Called out and equated."

I'm about dispelling illusions that people like to tell themselves. — StreetlightX

Wonderful. What about the illusion of "both parties are the same"?

So now it's back to both parties being an equal impediment.
— Xtrix

The democratic party functions as one-half of a two-part cycle whose overall effect is to ruin lives for everyone.
— StreetlightX

I'll keep quoting this so long as you need dude. — StreetlightX

Right, so an equal impediment, as I said. There is no better or worse in this case, thus no reason to vote for or against either party.

Brilliant analysis.

There is no better or worse in this case — Xtrix

There is definitely worse - which is perpetuating a by-now 60 or so year cycle.

Street says no because both parties are corrupt and that is supporting the system, — John McMannis

I must have missed that. It could be that is his position. I have missed things in the past. But notwithstanding my best efforts, I can't get him to say anything bad about the Trump (used to be Republican) Party. So far it's been all "Democrats bad. Democrats help Republicans." I don't think he's saying "don't vote" but even if he is, that is what Republicans want. That is why Republicans try to stop the vote in blue areas while encouraging it in red areas. The Democrat's don't do that. Democrats are all about getting out the vote, all votes. They both gerrymander, but Democrats want everyone to vote. Because the majority of Americans are Democrats. The will of the people is undermined by Republicans and their shills.

It seems to me that the real difference is just whether we should vote at all, right? Street says no because both parties are corrupt and that is supporting the system, and Xrix says we should vote for the party that will be less in the way of our goals. Am I right about this or way off? — John McMannis

Yes, you're correct. The different being that he feels both parties are two sides of the same coin, and I think that's silly and based on a very, very shallow understanding of reality -- which is why I mentioned courts, which is one significant example of how one party's rise to power has very damaging effects to progress indeed -- for decades.

There is definitely worse - which is perpetuating a by-now 60 or so year cycle. — StreetlightX

Yes yes, we all get it. You're against the two-party system. Good, now sit on the sidelines and stop supporting it. This way you can feel good about yourself.

You're against the two-party system — Xtrix

Nope. I'm against supporting people who ruin lives, and more than that, ensuring they get to do so.

Not just voting. I think both parties ought to be actively opposed and called out at every point. I'm not against voting. Vote how you like. But be aware of what it is you're voting for, and the effects it will have. I'm about dispelling illusions that people like to tell themselves. — StreetlightX

But isn't voting supporting a corrupt system by participating in it? I'm a little confused there. Seems like it's a crappy position to be in either way.

I guess those who hold jobs support capitalism, as well. — Xtrix

Your point here is that voting does not necessarily mean you support the two party political system in the US, right? I think this is a good point and that maybe Street agrees in some way?

I can't get him to say anything bad about the Trump (used to be Republican) Party. So far it's been all "Democrats bad. Democrats help Republicans." — James Riley

From what I understand, I think he is saying that both are bad.

The different being that he feels both parties are two sides of the same coin, and I think that's silly and based on a very, very shallow understanding of reality -- which is why I mentioned courts, which is one significant example of how one party's rise to power has very damaging effects to progress indeed -- for decades. — Xtrix

It depends on what your values are though, like you said. maybe you two don't see eye to eye on goals?

You're against the two-party system
— Xtrix

Nope. I'm against supporting people who ruin lives, and more than that, ensuring they get to do so. — StreetlightX

Me too, which is why I voted against Trump. Who was far worse than Biden -- a point I realize you can't understand.

Seems like it's a crappy position to be in either way. — John McMannis

It is absolutely a crappy position. But it is one engineered by the parties themselves. I'm not offering easy solutions. I don't think there are. People are going to get hurt. People are getting hurt. But I do think that what needs to not be done is to continue letting these parties put people in crappy positions.

Your point here is that voting does not necessarily mean you support the two party political system in the US, right? I think this is a good point and that maybe Street agrees in some way? — John McMannis

It's an absolutely trivial point that a 10 year old can understand. Provided they haven't spent years reading Zizek and other intellectual frauds, living in an idealist fantasy world.

Me too, which is why I voted against Trump. — Xtrix

... to support people who ruin lives and ensure they get to do so.

I'm not offering easy solutions. But I do think that what needs to not be done is to continue letting these parties put people in crappy positions. — StreetlightX

Not easy solutions -- zero solutions.

I think capitalism should be dismantled. Participating in it is perpetuating it. There, I feel better now.