My thought is this, if humanity could deal with the obvious meaninglessness of life, and realize that all we have is each other, could we not move on to a higher level than to dwell in delusions and denial. — boagie

No. This is because people are not rational beings. People are rationalizing beings. A rational being will come to a conclusion that is logic, and act on it despite their emotional and personal misgivings or dislike of the solution. A rationalizing being will attempt to present arguments and logic that rationalize their view on life. Most people will reject logical and rational arguments in favor of what they want to believe.

And I'm not talking about others. I'm talking about both you and me. The best we can do is attempt to minimize our propensity to rationalize, and actually attempt to use reason and logic. It requires humbleness, strength of character, an inquisitive mind, and a willingness to admit when one is wrong, even when it hurts or shames. This takes training, effort, and a will to do. Most people will never do this.

Yeah, I can't really disagree, excellent philosophim!

Low blow. — 180 Proof

Sartre is just Heidegger without the affectation or naziism... That's not a criticism!

Meaning is built - it is what you do. And what you do, you do together with other people.

Creating meaning is inherently a communal activity.
— Banno

Enter power games, hierarchy, and all that which eventually makes life so meaningless and so inauthentic. — baker

Only if you allow it to.

“you can always make something out of what you've been made into”

Banno Authenticity; you channeling Sartre channeling Heidegger. — Janus

Low blow. — 180 Proof

Wasn't meant as such. Re authenticity Banno said he was channeling Sartre; I was merely pointing out that Sartre was channeling Heidegger

A rational being will come to a conclusion that is logic, and act on it despite their emotional and personal misgivings or dislike of the solution. — Philosophim

Logic provides no reason to act. Logic may tell you that if you walk off the edge of a cliff you will fall and likely die. It cannot tell you whether or not to do it.

Where subject and object stand or fall together, meaning is always the sole property of the subject, never the property of the object. — boagie

Sure, it's not the property of the object considered in abstracto or considered in objective, analytical terms as a mere present (id)entity. That's Heidegger's point: more primordial than that analytic "present-at-hand" mode of thinking is the "ready to hand" mode where all things are replete with meaning. And this meaning is not constructed by the "subject", but comes from 'being-in-the-world", which is altogether prior to the thinking that gives rise to "subject" and "object".

I was merely pointing out that Sartre was channeling Heidegger — Janus

That's the "low blow"! :sweat:

:up:

That's the "low blow"! :sweat: — 180 Proof

A blow may be low, but true nonetheless; Sartre was greatly inspired by and acknowledged his debt to, Heidegger.

Unless you were referring to anal sex...or fellatio... :joke:

Sartre is just Heidegger without the affectation or naziism... — Banno

Unless you were referring anal sex...or fellatio... — Janus

Not without dinner and flowers.

:lol:

And only if you are the passive partner.

:lol: I was thinking of the relationship between Heidegger and Sartre, but now you've gone and introduced a whole other dimension I'm not comfortable with... :razz:

Oh, this weirdness is entirely down to you. You took the conversation off in this direction. If that now makes you uncomfortable, doubtless you now regret having done so. That's fine, as I have no intention of accepting your offer.

Oh, so you thought it was an offer? Sorry for the misunderstanding...
(I know you didn't really, I'm just playing along for the sake of derailing this thread).

From the Higher Level to meaninglessness (to get back on track).

It sounds like a bit of nonsense to me. All meaning is cognitive, all meaning is the property of a conscious subject. Meaning like apparent reality itself, is a biological readout. Meaning is the experience of the physical world upon one's biology. You have been reading to much Nazi material- - - lol!!

The best we can do is attempt to minimize our propensity to rationalize, and actually attempt to use reason and logic. It requires humbleness, strength of character, an inquisitive mind, and a willingness to admit when one is wrong, even when it hurts or shames. This takes training, effort, and a will to do. Most people will never do this. — Philosophim

It's not just "most people will never do this". It's: Everyone thinks they are of the few who have. No matter how sharply you define what rationality is, it is still at the mercy of rationalizing. "Don't place too much confidence in your opinion if it's about something you know little about" is a reasonable request. Everyone will agree with it, and everyone will think they're following it and the people who they disagree with are the problem!

It doesn't seem to me like it's possible to tell when one is actually "rationalizing less" from a first person perspective. Or from the perspective of someone who one largely agrees with.

Meaning is built - it is what you do. And what you do, you do together with other people.

Creating meaning is inherently a communal activity.
— Banno

Enter power games, hierarchy, and all that which eventually makes life so meaningless and so inauthentic.
— baker

Only if you allow it to. — Banno

The refugees at the border of Poland and Belarus, stuck there for days, neither state is letting them pass:



They are "allowing it".

“you can always make something out of what you've been made into”

Ms. Thatcher has taught you well.

Thatcher?

How incongruous.

No, your resorting to neoliberalism shows your true colors.

Meaning is built - it is what you do. And what you do, you do together with other people.

Creating meaning is inherently a communal activity.
— Banno

Enter power games, hierarchy, and all that which eventually makes life so meaningless and so inauthentic.
— baker

Only if you allow it to. — Banno

Yes, yes. The Jews, for example, have "created their meaning" "together with other people" -- with the Nazis.

What you've got going there is a nice little recipe for rigidly obeying social norms under the guise of authenticity. Because if your "true self" happens to match social norms, then you're just not inauthentic or acting in bad faith, now, are you.

IOW, you sound exactly like the advice one finds in women's magazines -- "By all means, be yourself, find your own meaning and purpose in life: as long as it's what society dictates that it should be."

Neoliberalism?

I don't know to whom you are replying, but it is not me.

Cheers.

I want you to look into the foundations of the advice/insight you give here. It's that same old "everyone is responsible for themselves", even as you try to sugarcoat it with references to communality.

Sure. Whatever you say. You are not replying to what I have written anyway, so why would I respond. Your posts are so far off target that they are irrelevant.

Since death exists I can't find any other worth full meaning in life except from trying to live a happy life.
And since happiness is just an abstract concept. I define happiness as living as much time (seconds from your whole life) with pleasant feelings. If not pleasant then peaceful- calm feelings .If neither calm then with "neutral" feelings.
In general by trying to minimize the time of your life that you will spend with unpleasant feelings.

It's the only purpose I have found worthy fighting for.

So a truly fulfilling life would be to spend all one's time wanking.

Hence these forums, I suppose.

Might go do some gardening.

Whatever you say. You are not replying to what I have written anyway, so why would I respond. Your posts are so far off target that they are irrelevant. — Banno

No, you're not that shallow. I think you know exactly what I'm talking about.

The communality you so highly praise is fraught with conflict and strife, which you conveniently refuse to admit.

Meaning is what we discover when we look. Days pass and the years vanish, and we walk sightless among miracles.

I don't take credit for that last sentence.

So a truly fulfilling life would be to spend all one's time wanking. — Banno

If you have the ability to wank all day and you get so much happiness from it, then none of my business. You better do that indeed.

Not all of us though have "wanking value" so high in our priority ranking. Whatever suits you better though.

I think you know exactly what I'm talking about. — baker

I do. It' just that of course the community is fraught with conflict and strife; but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

Hey, it wasn't I who advocated "living as much time (seconds from your whole life) with pleasant feelings" - that was your good self.

Nothing wrong with a bit of hedonism, of course.