Why would you want to know someone’s private health details?



Earlier I was speaking about the compulsory vaccination in Austria.

Austria plans compulsory Covid vaccination for all

I guess it was in one ear and out the other. So much for your lessons.

Your evidence for state control not existing is to list evidence of state control. Brilliant.

Why would you want to know someone’s private health details? — NOS4A2

:lol:

Can’t answer or refuse to answer?

Is the limitations on travel and gathering not state control?
— NOS4A2

No, it is not. There is, at least in the U.S., a Constitutional Right to travel. But you may have to walk if you don't want to get a driver's license and if you want to use our roads. See the difference? No? I didn't think so. — James Riley

Human population growth. — James Riley

:ok:

1. Large population $\rightarrow$Overcrowding $\rightarrow$ Pandemic

2. Large poulation $\rightarrow$ High demand for energy $\rightarrow$ Fossil fuel consumption + Deforestation $\rightarrow$ Climate change.

Double trouble! :up:

Earlier I was speaking about the compulsory vaccination in Austria. — NOS4A2

Apparently that has not happened yet. It was just one of your parade of horribles that I warned you about. That is what could happen if people don't step up. It's like a draft. If you won't help us fight an enemy virus, we may (but have not yet) make you. Coming to a theater near you if you don't step up.

Your evidence for state control not existing is to list evidence of state control. Brilliant. — NOS4A2

The evidence of state control does not yet exist. Do you even see how you are doing this to yourself? :rofl:

How are compulsory vaccinations, lockdowns, limitations on travel, gatherings, not state control?

Are you vaccinated? — john27

If he's anything like every single person who works at Fox News, or Donald Trump, then I'm sure he's vaxxed.

How are compulsory vaccinations, lockdowns, limitations on travel, gatherings, not state control? — NOS4A2

They are,if there were any. But you don't have to get vaxxed, you don't have to stay home, you can still gather. That is why we haven't defeated Covid. DOH!

I remember early on when the scientists said that it won't do any good if the first world beats this thing without vaxxing the third world. As long as antivaxxers, antimaskers, antidistancers are still out and about, it will continue to spread and morph. So we ask you nicely and you refuse. Then you whine when Austria, et al, start doing what you say is happening but which is not (yet).

So, if and when your dystopian state nightmare actually does come into existence, you will have brought it on yourself. So far though, the state is still just asking.

But lockdowns, limitations on travel, gatherings, industry, trade, have and are occurring worldwide. All I can say is that it is weird that you pretend they don’t exist, even as an exercise in casuistry.

But lockdowns, limitations on travel, gatherings, industry, trade, have and are occurring worldwide. All I can say is that it is weird that you pretend they don’t exist, even as an exercise in casuistry. — NOS4A2

I tried to teach you about privileges vs. rights. That was the driving example. You don't have any rights to access privilege. None. So get over your sense of entitlement. Thus, there is no state limitation of rights. Shoes, shirt, service, etc.

As to world-wide, outside my little U.S., again, do those with more stringent limitations have lower or higher rates of infection/hospitalization/death? And why? Because of state failure to be strict enough? Because if that is the case, then you have not been held down and vaxxed, or locked up. And besides, how would any of that matter as long as people who think like you are left to spread their disease all over hell and gone?

Also remember what I taught you: Freedom isn't free. People have to pay for it. Doctors, nurses, essential workers, your fellow citizens, stepping up and fighting a virus. While some kids resist. Oh, what rebels! :roll:

As a side note of curiosity, just how involved in human rights to freedom are you, when it comes to these foreign lands on non-Covid issues? I'll be you were a real trooper for freedom in Xland back in the day. :roll:

You tried, I guess, but the teaching is so authoritarian and statist that I cannot help to reject it. The parallels between your beliefs and that of fascism are frighteningly similar, I’m afraid, that my revulsion is visceral. So it goes, I guess.

You tried, I guess, but the teaching is so authoritarian and statist that I cannot help to reject it. The parallels between your beliefs and that of fascism are frighteningly similar, I’m afraid, that my revulsion is visceral. So it goes, I guess. — NOS4A2

Yeah, I guess basic civics is authoritarian and statist and fascist. So it goes.

Basic civics according to Mussolini.

There is a Liberal theory of freedom, and there is a Fascist concept of liberty. For we, too, maintain the necessity of safeguarding the conditions that make for the free development of the individual; we, too, believe that the oppression of individual personality can find no place in the modern state. We do not, however, accept a bill of rights which tends to make the individual superior to the state and to empower him to act in opposition to society. Our concept of liberty is that the individual must be allowed to develop his personality in behalf of the state, for these ephemeral and infinitesimal elements of the complex and permanent life of society determine by their normal growth the development of the state. But this individual growth must be normal. A huge and disproportionate development of the individual of classes, would prove as fatal to society as abnormal growths are to living organisms. Freedom therefore is due to the citizen and to classes on condition that they exercise it in the interest of society as a whole and within the limits set by social exigencies, liberty being, like any other individual right, a concession of the state.

Jackboots, brown shirts, service.

Basic civics according to Mussolini. — NOS4A2

I didn't read that because I don't take my definitions or leadership from fascists. Here's something you could try outside your fascist bubble:

"Examples of civic responsibility include voting in elections, signing up for the military, volunteering in the community, participating in government politics, and holding public office." Here's a link: https://study.com/academy/lesson/civic-duty-definition-examples.html Go educate yourself.

Small Pox, Chicken Pox, and a bunch of other viruses were eradicated by civic mindedness.

P.S. Every single solitary thing that you love or like, and which you currently enjoy (beyond the non-human natural environment), was brought to you by the left, by society, by civic minded people. Was greed part of it? Yes, but greed was harnessed and put to work by us to deliver what you enjoy. Get used to it. Don't be ungrateful. Don't be a parasite.

"Basic civics" now becomes "civic duty", as if the two were the same. The former is the study of citizenship while the other is a collectivist dogma. Your example speaks of Mohammed Ali being jailed because he refused the draft. I'll pass.

What of that which I enjoy has the left, society, and civic-minded people brought to me?

manifestly untrue — NOS4A2

Manifestly sweeping statement ignores context.

Say, once the virus has already spread wide, containment has already taken a turn for the worse.
Unfortunately, spread is often learned post-factum.

Say, the wider spread, the more likelihood of mutations.
Hopefully less transmissible/dangerous mutations, but it's kind of hard to say in advance (post-factum again).

Containment can be involved, and it's a team effort.
Presumably we agree on limiting the virus replicating, propagating, mutating?

What of that which I enjoy has the left, society, and civic-minded people brought to me? — NOS4A2

What do you enjoy in life that was not brought to you by the non-human natural environment? That.

Anyway, some on TPF argue about the way things should be. I'm not going to argue that, because I will stipulate that we should have that Libertarian Eden, with all rights and no responsibilities. No, what I am going to do is tell you the way things are, whether you like or not:

Groups of people cannot be expected to sit idly by, while individuals move through the group, killing or injuring other members. Anticipatorily, or responsively, the group can do nothing, all the way up to and including public torture and execution of the individual. Where on that continuum a group falls, depends upon the type of group. When I look at the world today, I see all groups erring on the side of leniency; some even bending over backwards to accommodate the individual, so he might continue moving through the group, availing himself of all the benefits of the group, without killing or injuring anyone.

But the group may or may not ramp up the response, depending solely upon the actions of the individual. If the individual stomps his little feet and cries, and refuses to avail himself of the opportunity to avoid killing or injuring others, whilst availing himself of all the privileges, then he can expect to be sent to his room without his supper. If he continues to be a selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful, petulant, obstinate little baby, then he can expect a spanking (vax). He will have brought it upon himself. But so far, all I'm seeing is a threat of "time out." Maybe being sent to his room without supper.

I know Libertarians, who fancy themselves as adults, simply and absolutely HATE the parental/state example because the see it as being so accurate. But again, we aren't talking about the way things should be. We are talking about the way things are. So if you don't want to be treated like a little baby, then you must quit acting like one. You might think the state is a big meanie. :cry: Okay. So stipulated. The state is a big meanie. :roll: But remember, if the state has failed to stop Covid, it's only because the state is not as mean as you make it out to be. And if it is incompetent, it's only because it's giving you a "time out" and not spanking you. Maybe Austria is thinking it's time for a spanking. Time out didn't work.

That is your lesson for the day.

Your example speaks of Mohammed Ali being jailed because he refused the draft. I'll pass. — NOS4A2

I know you will pass. That is the difference between you and Mohammed Ali and you and Socrates. But hey, you can always emulate Rand Paul.

Your description of the state as an overbearing parent is quite apt, so I can appreciate the analogy. But the fact you see it as your daddy does not entail that everyone else should or does. I don’t think you’re telling me how it is; I think you’re describing how you rationalize its behavior.

And it’s not a good rationalization in my opinion. The problem, as it has always been, is confusing the unvaccinated with the infected, giving yourself licence to call former murderers and treat them as undesirables even if they are unable to infect anyone, let alone kill them. But your murderers exist among the vaccinated as well. In truth, without antibody and other testing you do not know who is murderer, who is not. Of course, not knowing is ignorance, and discrimination premised on ignorance is folly.

So it’s a fictional tale, but worse, one that leads to discrimination and vilification of others. Without irony the same people decried as murderers in this story are also the greatest victims of this disease, yet the so-called civic duty is to force them like pariahs to the margins of society, only to embolden their hesitancy into outright refusal. We’ll lament them taking up precious space in hospitals, while saying nothing of the state’s failure to provide it, and this in countries with so-called “universal healthcare”. And while governments force private citizens to apply their discrimination policies, thereby making them unpaid state enforcers, they let the infected right through the door. What a sham this daddy of yours is.

We agree that we should limit the spread of the virus, but perhaps we do not agree that you can control a virus by controlling the citizenry.

Covid-19 was a masterclass in government failure, whether it was the suppression of those who rang the alarm in Wuhan, the failure of global health officials to warn in time, the failure of adequate testing, the failure to prepare, the failure to procure PPE, the failure of health systems, the releasing of patients into care homes, the weak vaccines, the failure to work with their peoples. We can add the rise in extreme poverty, mental illness, economic uncertainty, the loss of education, all of which are a direct result of their policies. Not only that, if certain theories prove to be true, it was their stupidity that created and released this scourge in the first place.

We can only imagine what might have happened had officialdom stayed out of the whole thing, but I bet we would have faired better without it.

To understand the libertarian mind, remember the mantra: the government is the problem.

Don’t bother asking what the alternative is.

Your description of the state as an overbearing parent is quite apt, so I can appreciate the analogy. — NOS4A2

It's apt because it is not an overbearing parent, but a loving parent trying to err on the side of leniency; bending over backwards to accommodate the child, so he might continue living in the family, availing himself of all the benefits of the family, without killing or injuring anyone.

One thing your lack of analytic reading skills had you miss was the word "Anticipatorily" when I said:

Anticipatorily, or responsively, the group can do nothing, all the way up to and including public torture and execution of the individual. — James Riley

Anticipatory action is like "no shoes, no shirts, no service." And speed limits, drinking age limitations and countless other laws that you obey without question. It's government giving you the opportunity to not kill or harm others.

However, your use of terms like "overbearing" when it comes to polite requests to mask, distance and vax, sounds suspiciously paranoid, like Q and other insecure, scared, paranoid individuals who think government is out to get them. It's sad, really. It would be funny but who would think what the government has requested is some how too much? To continue the family analogy, the sad part of this is not that you are like the child calling child services on their parents, because the child isn't getting their way. But, rather, the child actually thinks that mom and dad are abusing him by making him eat his vegetables. That's some Q level paranoia right there. So the child should not be surprised when child services rolls it's eyes. :roll:

We can only imagine what might have happened had officialdom stayed out of the whole thing, but I bet we would have faired better without it. — NOS4A2

Do you have any evidence of that? You know, like a country that accommodated every whim of the children? If no country did that, are you saying the whole world is wrong and you are right? On the other hand, the guy who just ran over 50 people and killed 5 really only killed the old folks. So, by Q analysis, it must be okay.

Every single solitary thing that you love or like, and which you currently enjoy (beyond the non-human natural environment), was brought to you by the left, by society, by civic minded people. — James Riley

You what now

The collective is like the European colonizers bribing the natives with beads and necklaces.

"Here is a shiny car and ten different brands of shampoo. Now go fight those colored people in a desert on the other side of the world."

Presumably we agree on limiting the virus replicating, propagating, mutating? — jorndoe

We do not. Let it run. ALL of our attempts to control it thus far have resulted in epic failure, for the very simple reason that it cannot be limited, it may be slowed, momentarily, but it will resurge again, until, eventually, it has hit everyone a few times, snuffed the snuffable, and the rest that are left have relative immunity. So it goes. Welcome to a new virus. It was going to happen eventually eh.

They are,if there were any. But you don't have to get vaxxed, you don't have to stay home, you can still gather. That is why we haven't defeated Covid. DOH! — James Riley

So we will never defeat Covid unless 100% of the world's population is vaccinated? Then Covid will never be defeated because you will never reach 100% world vaccination.

Not getting the vaccine because someone told you to is just as illogical as getting the vaccine because someone told you to. You can't control what others do, so it is incumbent upon the individual to weigh the evidence and the risks to your own self when leaving your house every day. Having the vaccine protects you against even the unvaccinated, so those that are vaccinated shouldn't be concerned about anyone else's private health status. I've been vaccinated, but I'm neither pro-vaccine or anti-vax. I'm anti-mandates because it's just a matter of when, not if, a mandate is imposed that you don't like and think has gone to far, but by that time it will have gone too far to do anything about it. Give the government an inch and they take a mile.

The collective is like the European colonizers bribing the natives with beads and necklaces. — Tzeentch

Collectivism is not about government handouts. It's where the health of the community is valued above that of individuals.

So like, if you're aware that there is a risk to being vaccinated, but you do it to help others, you have a collectivist spirit.

If you prize your own health so much you're willing to see the community laid low, you're a liberal (sorry, "left" and 'right" just cause confusion. It's collectivist and liberal.)

To understand the libertarian mind, remember the mantra: the government is the problem.

Don’t bother asking what the alternative is. — Xtrix

You are only seeing things in black and white. There is a middle ground - which is Libertarianism. Libertarianism is for limited government, not no government. But as a Libertarian, I recognize that unfettered power in any form, not just government (which is a form of power and control), is a threat to individual liberty. Corporations should have their powers checked as much as the governments. Monopolies need to be broken up and competition promoted.

Libertarians are the true liberals, and promoting the idea to abolish political parties, while at the same time imposing term limits, banning polls, and creating a fair playing field for all candidates would be "progressive". As such, I am a progressive liberal. The media and most other people are using the term, "progressive liberal" in the wrong way, referring to authoritarian socialists which would is the antithesis of Progressive Liberalism.