When is creative license allowed in matters of race? — TiredThinker

Probably not what you were expecting, but since there is no such thing as race (although racism seems real enough) could you recast your question?

I guess it was a choice between not being sexist (cast a woman) & not being racist (cast an Asian). We all know how that played out.

Funny, I was just wondering the other day how white women were once treated (almost) like blacks (limited freedom) and yet we have racist white women.

If I were to be cynical, what the casting director did was call a feminist and an antiracist, put them in a room and asked them to decide who should play the Ancient One in Dr. Strange, and quielty slipped out. Casting director: Let 'em fight it out while I make my getaway.

Divide & Conquer. Simple & effective mil strategy.

It’s not racist or sexist to change the gender of fictional characters. Doing so at the expense of quality is stupid though. I don’t think the movie advertised how the Ancient One is a woman so it didn’t seem out of place.

Too often producers change the gender of a character, then mention the fact that the character is now a woman/man every other scene. That’s annoying. If they want to make a movie about gender discrimination, they can do that, they don’t have to shove it into another story.

there is no such thing as race — tim wood

I tend to stay away from threads about race, but I’m interested in what this means. Just seems arcane to me since I don’t participate in those kinds of threads.

It’s not racist or sexist to change the gender of fictional characters. — khaled

It's not!? :brow:

Perhaps this :point: cross-gender acting will prove a point or two.

It's not. It can be though. People can be many things.

In art there artist license. Some may choose one way to do something whilst another another. Some will prefer one way to the other. I would caution confusing discrimination with taste, or taste with discrimination - especially when others wish to stir things up and sell articles and/or force a political ideology in against the intent of the artistic/creative endeavor.

It's not. It can be though. People can be many things.

In art there artist license. Some may choose one way to do something whilst another another. Some will prefer one way to the other. I would caution confusing discrimination with taste, or taste with discrimination - especially when others wish to stir things up and sell articles and/or force a political ideology in against the intent of the artistic/creative endeavor — I like sushi

I dunno. I still feel there's more going on than meets the eye in the arts (movie industry). Sinister goings on that is. In cynical mode, do be careful.

In the movie Dr. Strange they had Tilda Swinton play the role of "The ancient one", which in the comic books was always an old Asian man. This received a certain amount of backlash. But was it racist? Maybe having a martial arts master be an old asian dude is a archetype so isn't that almost racist in a sense? When is creative license allowed in matters of race? — TiredThinker

I think it's a good idea. White people can only play white people. Asians can only play Asians. Blacks can only play black people. Hispanics can only play Hispanics. Gay people can only play gay people.

Hence why I said "it can be though". To look at every choice as character as a decision made purely on race - unless that is the subject matter of the production - seems silly.

As for the casting someone asian as an ancient martial arts master ... well, yeah. Why wouldn't you considering that in asia there is an established and long held tradition in the martial arts? It does seem strange (excuse the pun) that they when for a woman, but it may just have been because she applied for the job, did a good job and so they hired her.

I would be surprised if they only asked white women to attend the casting. It could also have been that they didn't ask anyone else and someone enjoyed her work and had a vision for the movie?

So, no. It is not necessarily racist or sexist to cast someone for a role in a film.

there is no such thing as race — tim wood

Scientifically there isn't. Sadly old ideas have mostly died out but the terminology carried on. 'Race' is effectively a cultural phenomenon. In terms of genetics there are differences between broad groups but such differences go far beyond outward appearances.

Between ethic groups that have some slight genetic distinctions there is little difference compared to within the group - which automatically dismisses the idea of a humans being of scientifically distinct 'races'. This is actually important when it comes to diagnosing diseases and conditions more prevalent in some groups more than others, yet the stigma attached to this whole area makes people feel dread and fear.

Strangely enough on a science forum when I posted about scientists having to take a more proactive role in combatting misconceptions of 'race' due to faulty archaic pseudo science and a lack of spokespersons in this area they practically all announced that 'race' doesn't exist even though I pointed out that they have a boxes on forms where they ask people their race so it does have a place in society outside the scope of the hard sciences.

The social sciences are extremely flimsy and many core scientists (physicists and such) are not exactly sure it should even be called a 'science' (and in universities it isn't classed as a 'Science' it is under the category of 'Humanities and Arts').

Hence why I said "it can be though". To look at every choice as character as a decision made purely on race - unless that is the subject matter of the production - seems silly. — I like sushi

I agree but it is a sensitive subject.

As for the casting someone asian as an ancient martial arts master ... well, yeah. Why wouldn't you considering that in asia there is an established and long held tradition in the martial arts? It does seem strange (excuse the pun) that they when for a woman, but it may just have been because she applied for the job, did a good job and so they hired her. — I like sushi

Indeed, a possibility we can't rule out.

So, no. It is not necessarily racist or sexist to cast someone for a role in a film. — I like sushi

Perhaps. At least the Ancient One was in Kathmandu :lol: and not in New York. Wait "she" comes to New York. :roll:

I'm just puzzled.

So, according to the casting director of Dr. Strange, the following equality holds true:

A white woman = An Asian male

:rofl:

Perhaps. — TheMadFool

Saying 'not necessarily' is not the same as saying 'not at all necessary'. You must've misread.

According to you. You seem insistent to view this as a decision made on race rather than on their view of the actor.

None of this is me saying it wasn't a conscious choice. Perhaps at the back of their mind they thought it was also a bonus to cast her as it would give the film some extra publicity knowing that some folks are always looking for controversy (genuine or otherwise simply to sell articles or make a name for themselves).

Saying 'not necessarily' is not the same as saying 'not at all necessary'. You must've misread. — I like sushi

Let's not split hairs, shall we?

According to you. You seem insistent to view this as a decision made on race rather than on their view of the actor.

None of this is me saying it wasn't a conscious choice. Perhaps at the back of their mind they thought it was also a bonus to cast her as it would give the film some extra publicity knowing that some folks are always looking for controversy (genuine or otherwise simply to sell articles or make a name for themselves). — I like sushi

You have a point but so do I.

Perhaps at the back of their mind — I like sushi

Therein lies the rub. Is racism a natural response? What lies beneath.

Saying 'not necessarily' is not the same as saying 'not at all necessary'. You must've misread. — I like sushi

Well, actually, let's (split hairs). What's the difference between them, plus, why is my response "perhaps" not up to the mark?

By saying you are not sure about something being unsure means you think it is either black or white.

If you misread you misread. Look ...

So, no. It is not necessarily racist or sexist to cast someone for a role in a film.
— I like sushi

Perhaps. At least the Ancient One was in Kathmandu :lol: and not in New York. Wait "she" comes to New York. :roll: — TheMadFool

So you are saying that perhaps it has to be about racism and/or sexism rather than sometimes being about racism and/or sexism.

Looking at your other response I guess you are stating that perhaps being 'sexist'/'racist' is a natural state of affairs. I don't think so. I would say 'sexism'/'racism' is political language that is taught. I think something vaguely along the line of broad 'tribalism' could have more of an inbuilt aspect in terms of fear of the unknown and evolutionary survival (but that is mostly speculation).

So I disagree. If however you misread or mean something else tell me.

It appears we've both misread each other. Never say always but also, never say never. Oops! That's what reality does to you.

I missed a spot. There's also the problem of stereotyping. My, who knew a casting director's job was that difficult. I hope they get paid well.

It appears we've both misread each other. — TheMadFool

We wouldn't be here if that wasn't almost always the case in almost every situation :)

Never say always but also, never say never. Oops! That's what reality does to you. — TheMadFool

The 'perhaps' still looks misplaced to me.

The 'perhaps' still looks misplaced to me. — I like sushi

What word(s) is/are suitable then? "Yes, you're spot on!"??

It is a problem if they feel intimidated into casting, or not casting, someone based on others ideas of race/sex or whatever.

You cannot please everyone.

I would find it interesting if there was a drama made about race/sex relations where all the actors played their visual opposites. I am kind of surprised it hasn't happened yet because they'd be SO much media attention on such a film that it'd sell out instantly :D

You cannot please everyone. — I like sushi

It's the thought that counts! :grin:

Silence. It was an obvious statement. Casting is not necessarily all about race and sex. Sometimes, although not always, people are cast because they are good.

I find that hard to question or add a 'perhaps' as if it is somehow contentious.

The way I see the issue:

1. Stereotype OR Sexist Or Racist

Casting director, make a choice!

Oh, I'll choose a white (that takes care of stereotyping), a woman (that takes care of sexism) and there should be a scene in the orient, Kathmandu (that takes care of racism). :grin:

Maybe having a martial arts master be an old asian dude is a archetype so isn't that almost racist in a sense? When is creative license allowed in matters of race? — TiredThinker

I guess you're talking about cultural appropriation. This matter can be seen through several lenses, like most issues.

I have a Asian friend who was annoyed by the casting because there are not many big roles for people of Asian background in major films, so when a white person along with Celtic culture replaces an Asian character, with Asian culture (who is already established as Asian in the source material), this can readily be seen in a negative light.

And yes, it is a well-worn trope to have an elderly Asian grand master. But comics/graphic novels deal in well-worn tropes. Personally I found it difficult to accept Sherlock Holmes as a CGI sorcerer.

Personally I found it difficult to accept Sherlock Holmes as a CGI sorcerer. — Tom Storm

XD

Celtic culture replaces an Asian character, with Asian culture — Tom Storm

Celtic culture? Did I not pay attention in the film enough to notice "celtic" mythos?

Politics: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/world/asia/china-doctor-strange-tibet.html

Looks like China said NO to a mention of 'Tibet'. Not surprising considering they have enough clout to ban movies and cut the revenue for said movie/s by millions of dollars.

btw what about the China propaganda machine. I did hear rumours they were paying video games and movies to portray people who look Chinese as benevolent people.

It is clear to see how the US has tried its arm at anti-Russian sentiments for a long long time too. These things do bleed over into the mainstream for sure.

Even worse... the Chinese market!