a smug sneer — T Clark

Accompanied, I imagine, by a snooty snort.

Can you say more? Do you mean to say that unattachment is a less pejorative manifestation of apathy? — Tom Storm

I can say that the closest I've gotten to what I imagine Enlightenment to be like; is a moment of clarity and acceptance that happens to correspond with the state of affairs. Something along the lines of arguing a point until arriving at the obvious realization that being convincing and being right aren't the same thing. But, genuinely not really caring or maintaining an importance around this or that. I don't know what it really is; but that's how I translate it.

I think Mr. Cheshire just means that he doesn't understand and can't imagine what is meant by "Enlightenment" in the context we are discussing it. That allows him to reject its value with a smug sneer. — T Clark

Always happy to be an inspiration.

Am I really that rough on you guys?

No, I was just indulging in a little alliteration. In any case, even if it were true it would only be "rough on me" if I was bothered by it.

Fair enough.

Meister Eckhardt, the only medieval theologian ever tried for heresy. Not exactly a shining star of dispassion and detachment, if you see it rightly. Not his fault though, once God gets her hooks into a person they will fight tooth and nail for their beliefs.

Honestly, Eckhart Tolle is a better champion of dispassion and detachment.

Tolle, whose real first name is Ulrich, was born into a German Catholic family in 1948. He changed his name to Eckhart in a homage to the German spiritual leader Meister Eckhart.

Probably and branding/marketing tactic, truth be told.

It's only to provide food for your habitual trolling, truth be told, so I'll stop indulging you.

And what of old Eckhardt‘s apparent attachment to his views?

I know very little about enlightenment but I wonder if being any kind of teacher is already a sign of significant attachments.

But, genuinely not really caring or maintaining an importance around this or that. I don't know what it really is; but that's how I translate it. — Cheshire

Ok. I don't think it's uncommon for notions like unattachment and detachment and apathy to merge into a maelstrom of studied indifference in mainstream Western eyes.

Ok. I don't think it's uncommon for notions like unattachment and detachment and apathy to merge into a maelstrom of studied indifference in mainstream Western eyes. — Tom Storm

It is hard to separate how the enlightened might appear versus speculating about the internal state. I'd suppose for contrast an unenlightened person being very anxious and insistent regarding their state of enlightenment.

a maelstrom of studied indifference — Tom Storm

That's an interesting, evocative, even if counter-intuitive, phrasing!

I don't think it's uncommon for notions like unattachment and detachment and apathy to merge into a maelstrom of studied indifference in mainstream Western eyes. — Tom Storm

I think it comes from ignorance and an inability to understand or imagine how someone might think differently about the world than they do.

I know very little about enlightenment but I wonder if being any kind of teacher is already a sign of significant attachments. — Tom Storm

Religious attachment is next level, and dubiously justified by the notion that it’s not materialistic in nature, as though that matters when it comes to attachment.

I think it comes from ignorance and an inability to understand or imagine how someone might think differently about the world than they do. — T Clark

I think also for some people, and I'm not thinking of anyone particular here, there's an emotional, almost visceral reaction to certain words. Before the person even considers the idea, the response is there already, dismissive and pugnacious - almost like a 'lizard brain', flight or fight response. You say Christianity, they immediately blurt out 'deception and pedophilia..'. That kind of thing. Maybe attachment can be added to the list of provocative trigger words. Christ knows I've been guilty of prejudging a bunch of ideas myself... :worry:

It seems that in Nietzsche's view, there should exist a series of selves; one overcoming the other.
Whereas in some ideologies, enlightenment has to do with stopping the process of selfing altogether. — baker

Reminds me of Varela and Thompson’s account of the zen buddhist Nishitani’s critique of Nietzsche.

“Nishitami deeply admires Nietzsche's attempt but claims that it actually perpetuates the nihilistic predicament by not letting go of the grasping mind that lies at the souce of both objectivism and nihlism. Nishitani's argument is that nihilism cannot be overcome by assimilating groundlessness to a notion of the will-no matter how decentered and impersonal. Nishitani's diagnosis is even more radical than Nietzsche's, for he claims that the real problem with Western nihilism is that it is halfhearted: it does not consistently follow through its own inner logic and motivation and so stops short of transforming its partial realization of groundlessness into the philosophical and experiential possiblities of sunyata.”

I think what Nishitami failed to grasp was that will to
nothingness is still willing. Self for Nietzsche isnt an entity but a vector of change.

Maybe attachment can be added to the list of provocative trigger words. — Tom Storm

I think it's tied up with distrust and disdain for the idea of mysticism.

Who looks outside, dreams;
who looks inside, awakes. — Carl Jung

Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. — Carl Jung

Perhaps a little of your own thought.

Enlightenment is basically getting the dosage right. Responding to the right person/thing at the right time, in the right place, to the right amount/degree, for the right duration. Not too much, not too less, just right. Goldilocks zone, hit the sweet spot as it were. I'm no good in bed. :sad:

$\phi = 1.618...$ [proportio divina]

Eureka! It's about beauty! Oh, shit!

Enlightenment is basically getting the dosage right. — TheMadFool

I get it...always stick to the phi ratio:

ϕ=1.618... [proportio divina] — TheMadFool

1.618 in each hit/cap/bump/gram/tab/pill/shot/drink/&c., is the perfect dose to reach enlightenment on any substance.

That's about right.

The 5 Rights

Most health care professionals, especially nurses, know the “five rights” of medication use: the right patient, the right drug, the right time, the right dose, and the right route—all of which are generally regarded as a standard for safe medication practices. — NCBI

Nishitami deeply admires Nietzsche's attempt but claims that it actually perpetuates the nihilistic predicament by not letting go of the grasping mind that lies at the souce of both objectivism and nihlism. — Joshs

:100:

Objectivism = ‘it really exists’. Nihilism = ‘It doesn’t exist’. The two extreme views according to Buddhism.

Objectivism = ‘it really exists’. Nihilism = ‘It doesn’t exist’. The two extreme views according to Buddhism. — Wayfarer

Metaphysically minimalistic...perhaps.

Nishitani's diagnosis is even more radical than Nietzsche's, for he claims that the real problem with Western nihilism is that it is halfhearted: it does not consistently follow through its own inner logic and motivation and so stops short of transforming its partial realization of groundlessness into the philosophical and experiential possiblities of sunyata. — Joshs

It’s always amusing when someone speaking from the firm ground of a system of meaning, Zen Buddhism in this case, talks of groundlessness.

I think to be enlightened is the realization that there are things that you don't know that you don't know.

Everyone knows there are things they don't know. But not everyone knows there are things that they don't know they don't know.

I don't know if I actually believe what I just said, but I'm throwing it out there as a kind of free-form, train-of-thought kind of thing; tossing it on the wall to see if it sticks. Feel free to destroy it. :smile:

P.S. I know I don't know how much you weigh. I also know that I don't know anything about that atom on that piece of mineral on the back side of that distant planet 12 billion lightyears from here that we've never seen and don't know exists and that no one has ever mentioned until now. But beyond that, there are things that I don't know I don't know, and I know that. Thus, I am enlightened. I am both humbled by my ignorance, and eager to know what I don't know. In fact, it intrigues me way more than the answers to those simple things that I know I don't know.

I think to be enlightened is the realization that there are things that you don't know that you don't know. — James Riley

All attempted definitions are welcome. There are lots of things I don't know that I don't know. And lots of things I don't want to know. I have always made the assumption - not sure why - that in theory enlightenment comes as a sudden realization which brings with it some kind of revealed wisdom through a unity with higher consciousness. This is not a concept sustained by my secular worldview.