God is a comedian playing to an audience that is too afraid to laugh. — Voltaire

We all love a good laugh and one easy way to :rofl: is to simply listen to a joke and nothing's funnier or more ludicrous than a contradiction :point: reductio ad absurdum. Democritus -the laughing philosopher - got the joke! By the way, it's not funny.

"Wisdom" covers a lot of territory: prudence, cleverness, intelligence, shrewdness, sagacity, insight, understanding, knowledge, perception, sense, reason. Apparently wisdom is cumulative -- one gets more of it as one ages. (However, one 'wise saying' is that "wisdom does not necessarily increase with age". There are plenty of old fools who should know better (this observation is based on solid autobiographical information).

Some people are "wise" (in any of the above terms) much earlier than others. When I was 40 I had a boss who was 30 years old, and she was far wiser than I. However, even "wise ones" can make colossal errors and blunders which are decidedly not wise.

We deploy words like truth, beauty, wisdom, sublime, and a batch of similar words even though the precise meaning of the words are difficult to pin down.

I think wisdom is when someone has knowledge, applies it correctly to a situation with the expectation of a particular outcome that occurs.

To contrast this with intelligence. I believe intelligence is the ability of someone without knowledge to quickly find, and continue to test what they should apply to a situation to arrive at a particular outcome.

Wisdom deals with solving the problems of the known. Intelligence deals with solving the problems of the unknown.

I tend to agree with Aristotle's approach (Metaphysics, Book One):

the wise man is he who can comprehend difficult things, such as are not easy for human comprehension (for sense-perception, being common to all, is easy, and has nothing to do with Wisdom)

It opens the door for me to the idea of "cognitive effort" or will, which has both empirical and normative aspects.

But clearly he started out unethical, self serving, probably cruel. Is that a contradiction to being wise? — TiredThinker

It is not unwise to start out unethical, self serving, probably cruel. It might be unethical to stay that way. To answer that, we have to get into "what is unethical, self serving, and probably cruel."

I think Gilgamesh is definitely wise.

One consideration is the standards of ethics at Gilgamesh's time. If we apply our own standards of morality (influenced by thousands of years of Greco-Roman, Christian, and other influences) to Gilgamesh's time, we are obviously going to see a lot of discrepancies. But some standards of morality actually encourage self-serving, and even cruel actions when the highest value in a society is to assert oneself. I would not be surprised if there was a substantial element of this in Ancient Mesopotamian.

I think there might be wisdom in living up to the moral standards of one's time, or at least trying to, and I am pretty sure that is what he was doing, considering that Gilgamesh's story is the heroic tale of his culture, as was say, Achilles, and Jesus for theirs.

But as it was described in the text his behaviors were considered subpar. Not just my modern observation. Until he met that other dude he was kind of a twat. Lol.

Well wise can only be the statement( or the person who makes that statement) that is in agreement with our current epistemology and has the ability to expand our understanding.
Philosophy's job is exactly that....

Okay. Went and actually familiarized myself with the Gilgamesh story (probably a good idea).
I just get the impression that he's really human. I feel like along the way he learns to be a little more humble and compassionate, instead of just taking advantage of people like at the start. So maybe he becomes wise, having contemplated and kinda come to terms with mortality. Honoring his friend and whatnot.
As for weather someone can be wise and also evil... I still think maybe? Cause couldn't you come to learn all the wisdom of being "good" and keep it with you but just selectively choose to ignore it? Or use your wisdom as power for your own selfish ends?

A friend told me about "dark empaths" which are basically people who can read other people's emotions very well, so not a sociopath, however they use that information to do harm instead of altruism. I assume hubris is a huge factor.

As for Gilgamesh I found it weird that he could be 2/3 a God and yet not immortal at the least.

Wisdom is just truth in the subconscious intuition.

Maybe the thread to which the following post is linked will be helpful: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/548752 ...
Is Gilgamesh "wise"? Does he incorrigibly make himself and/or others miserable? Is he a 'role-model' of corrigible self-mastery to his fellows?

I’m wise. It basically means you’ve made tonnes of mistakes and keep on making mistakes and recognising them rather than getting hung up over them and falling into a pit of despair.

Some people are "wise" (in any of the above terms) much earlier than others. When I was 40 I had a boss who was 30 years old, and she was far wiser than I. However, even "wise ones" can make colossal errors and blunders which are decidedly not wise. — Bitter Crank

I think if there is a rough age where ‘wisdom’ starts to blossom it is probably at around the 30 yr old mark. Anyone stating they are wise in their 20’s is likely not at all wise, yet if others beyond that age state they are wise and they refuse the label there is a good chance they are wise beyond their years at least.

Like I outlined above, wisdom to me is all about experience and learning from experience. The idea of wisdom in youth would be simply to listen to what those older than you have to say and understand they have made many more mistake in life than you have so you’re better off listening to them seriously rather than acting like they are idiots who made poor choices in life.

Both the sage and the fool talk out of their bunghole. The difference is the sage knows that but the fool doesn't.

:up:

I'd say wisdom is the accumulated ability to learn from experience and mistakes. The wise person has become capable of self-criticism and has used that tool long enough to limit their future mistakes or recognize and correct them quicker.

This could be used for evil, if evil happens to be their personal goal which they're sincere about.

This could be used for evil, if evil happens to be their personal goal which they're sincere about. — Paul

Evil is always divided and in conflict; I wouldn't call something of that nature wise.

Evil can be unifying, in fact it can be the only thing capable of holding a nation together sometimes (the Taliban, Hussein, Gadaffi could unite their nations in a way others with better intentions couldn't).

For example one could argue that Stalin was wise, achieving his ends (power, rapid industrialization, control of eastern Europe, worldwide spread of communism) through carefully devised cruel methods.

I think Gilgamesh is definitely wise. — SatmBopd

Then I encourage you to read some decent translation of it. His subjects thought him an affliction, their prayers for relief resulting in him encountering Enkidu, Enkidu's and our encounter with Shamhat, and the rest of the story. Spoiler alerts for Christians.

For example one could argue that Stalin was wise, — Paul

Every monster is wise in monstrousness. Would that be the direction of your aspiration? Or what you would admire or call wisdom?

carefully devised cruel methods — Paul

Which are ultimately self-defeating.

Recently listened to "Epic of Gilgamesh" and he was described as wise. But clearly he started out unethical, self serving, probably cruel. Is that a contradiction to being wise? — TiredThinker

Over time and with experience, some people develop, grow and change. I think this is true based on what I have seen. Some of the wise people in alcohol and drug support, for instance, are peers with lived experience who have managed to work through the issues underpinning their addiction and stay clean. They have wisdom that was born out of making many mistakes for many years. Some people are able to transcend trauma, narcissism, hatred, cruelty, immaturity and greed.

carefully devised cruel methods
— Paul

Which are ultimately self-defeating. — The Opposite

In what universe? Tolkienverse?

carefully devised cruel methods
— Paul
Which are ultimately self-defeating.
— The Opposite
In what universe? Tolkienverse? — baker

I think the key word is "ultimately," referring to outcomes, goals, desires. Socrates understood this, and I am sure what he understood was already by then for thousands of years in human understanding, even as certainly not understood by all.

Hmm. Implied is that we all ought to study and learn to identify the bad man, both as people and as communities, and figure out how to neutralize him before he causes all his harm. That, and better education. But how many, as a percentage, of the people in a community are bad?

One way to recognize the bad man is by the trail of failure, destruction, and misery/sadness/unhappiness he leaves in his wake - not redeemed by wrapping a ribbon around it.

In what universe? Tolkienverse? — baker

That was good versus evil.

In this universe good is unconditional, and thus non-dependent. There is no battle between good and evil; only one in which evil defeats itself, and good is absent.

You are aware of your... Something very strange...

This is not a pleasing sum, it is better said unequivocally, as wisdom.

Your right to exist.