Gloria Steinem said "If men could get pregnant, abortion on demand would be a sacrament." — Bitter Crank

There are a lot of female anti-abortion advocates as well, though. In fact, I don't think Texas could end legal abortion without either the help or apathy of women.

puts pressure on scientists/medical community to come up with a different solution, a solution that's more nuanced, that's more in keeping with our sophisticated worldview, than simply expelling a living fetus, a potential person, from the uterus. — Agent Smith

As I opined long ago in this thread, the problem is getting dragged down into nuance, different solutions, sophisticated world views. Pro-choice people just need to stipulate to all the arguments of the pro-life crowd and say "Tough: Every human being has an unfettered right to do whatever they want with any other human being that resides within their body."

Getting dragged down in silliness about sentience, viability, when life begins, blah blah blah is all a diversion from the simple fact that every human being has (should have) an unfettered right to do whatever they want with any other human being that resides within their body.

As I opined long ago in this thread, the problem is getting dragged down into nuance, different solutions, sophisticated world views. Pro-choice people just need to stipulate to all the arguments of the pro-life crowd and say "Tough: Every human being has an unfettered right to do whatever they want with any other human being that resides within their body."

Getting dragged down in silliness about sentience, viability, when life begins, blah blah blah is all a diversion from the simple fact that every human being has (should have) an unfettered right to do whatever they want with any other human being that resides within their body. — James Riley

Why would you say that? You give me the impression that you're man and whatever sex/gender I may be, I've never personally undergone an abortion. In short, both of us have little understanding what it's actually like to have one.

I've seen women who sought abortion. Believe you me, some had this :sad: or this :cry: expression on their faces. Truth be told I've never encountered a pregnant client at an abortion clinic with this :grin: or :rofl: expression on their faces.

Women take the matter of terminating a pregnancy very seriously. They know, deep down in their hearts, there's something cruel, morally suspect, about abortion. It's just that they've been, for one reason or another, forced into a corner.

Why would you say that? — Agent Smith

Because it's none of our business.

You give me the impression that you're man and whatever sex/gender I may be, I've never personally undergone an abortion. In short, both of us have little understanding what it's actually like to have one. — Agent Smith

It's none of our business.

I've seen women who sought abortion. Believe you me, some had this :sad: or this :cry: expression on their faces. Truth be told I've never encountered a pregnant client at an abortion clinic with this :grin: or :rofl: expression on their faces. — Agent Smith

It's none of our business.

Women take the matter of terminating a pregnancy very seriously. They know, deep down in their hearts, there's something cruel, morally suspect, about abortion. — Agent Smith

It's their business.

It's just that they've been, for one reason or another, forced into a corner. — Agent Smith

Because other people don't mind their own business.

It's none of our business? Men (if we are men that is) are supposed to take an active part in the family: share the burden and not leave everything for the woman to do.

It's none of our business? — Agent Smith

Right. End of story, full stop. Period.

Men (if we are men that is) are supposed to take an active part in the family: share the burden and not leave everything for the woman to do. — Agent Smith

True. If, before birth, she wants our help, or, after birth, then we help. But when the human being is living inside her body, she has carte blanche. Choice.

Choice — James Riley

This may be a sour grapes kinda thing for me but choice is overrated. What's the point in being able to choose when you make all the bad choices? I'm going out on a limb here and say that I'd rather have no choice than have a choice and mess it up.

What's the point in being able to choose when you make all the bad choices. I'm going out on a limb here and say that I'd rather have no choice than have a choice and mess it up. — Agent Smith

The point is, not having other people make the choice for you. If you look up to, admire, and respect those people, then you can choose to do what they say. If you think they are FOS, then you get to make your own choice, mistake, or not. If you want to go out on that limb, then I have a bridge I want to sell you. I have decided that you better give me all your money. Better you do that than have a choice and mess it up.

P.S. In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our freedom to make mistakes. If you are a women that regrets having aborted: Lesson learned. If you are a man who knocked up a women who aborted against your wishes, then you failed in your choice of women: Lesson learned.

The point is, not having other people make the choice for you. If you look up to, admire, and respect those people, then you can choose to do what they say. If you think they are FOS, then you get to make your own choice, mistake, or not. If you want to go out on that limb, then I have a bridge I want to sell you. I have decided that you better give me all your money. Better you do that than have a choice and mess it up. — James Riley

:up: Nevertheless, I see it as a duty to help those who can't think for themsleves and that includes those who don't understand the implications of their choices. Even if I come off as a nosey parker, I feel obliged to share my take with someone grappling with an issue. People (women for this discussion) need to hear the whole story to make an intelligent choice.

As for giving you all my money, how do I know you'll use it well? We're in the same boat I'm afraid.

P.S. In the U.S., we pride ourselves on our freedom to make mistakes. If you are a women that regrets having aborted: Lesson learned. If you are a man who knocked up a women who aborted against your wishes, then you failed in your choice of women: Lesson learned. — James Riley

:ok: Freedom, brand America! :up: I'm afraid the quote that follows applies to Americans as well.

[...]the choice for human beings is not, as a rule, between good and evil but between two evils. — George Orwell

That sucks!

Nevertheless, I see it as a duty to help those who can't think for themsleves and that includes those who don't understand the implications of their choices. Even if I come off as a nosey parker, I feel obliged to share my take with someone grappling with an issue. People (women for this discussion) need to hear the whole story to make an intelligent choice. — Agent Smith

"can't think for themselves" "don't understand the implications of their choices" "need to hear" "intelligent choices" ????????????

You'd make a wonderful citizen in an authoritarian state. I'm not going to spend any more time destroying your sense of duty or obligation, any more than I would try to talk sense to a missionary who wants to spread his word to some pre-contact Amazonian tribe. Suffice it to say, I will shed no tears to find out you taste like chicken.

That sucks! — Agent Smith

It does not apply to anyone because there is no such thing as evil. That doesn't suck.

"can't think for themselves" "don't understand the implications of their choices" "need to hear" "intelligent choices" ????????????

You'd make a wonderful citizen in an authoritarian state. I'm not going to spend any more time destroying your sense of duty or obligation, any more than I would try to talk sense to a missionary who wants to spread his word to some pre-contact Amazonian tribe. Suffice it to say, I will shed no tears to find out you taste like chicken. — James Riley

Time for me to bow out. Have a nice day. See ya around James Riley. :smile:

A very powerful Christian argument against abortion: Jesus Christ — Agent Smith

And here's an argument for it which is similarly vacuous: Hitler

[

he martyr's logic: I'd rather not live than <insert option but whatever it is, it's gotta be pain of some kind> — Agent Smith

Ever read any Tertullian? A Christian, considered one of the Founders of the Church. He wrote of a crowd of Christians who showed up at the residence of a Roman magistrate, demanding that he have them killed. They wanted to die, you see, certain that death at the hands of a Roman official would instantly send them to heaven. The logic of the fanatic. It's not surprising that many Pagans considered Christianity to be a kind of death cult.

The Roman sent the crowd away, telling them that if they wanted to die they could find rope by which to hang themselves and cliffs from which they could leap to their deaths.

.

Christianity to be a kind of death cult. — Ciceronianus

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die. — On a red shirt, on a beautiful girl

Everybody knows the truth, it's just that it's taking a helluva long time to accept it. People are in denial.

You're assuming a fetus is a parasite. — Agent Smith

Living organism inside a hosts body that the host does not want living inside it. By removing that organism from the host it will die. Yep, that is a parasite.

As for the murder scenario, there is much less satisfaction, and therefore entertainment value, in eliminating someone via abortion. It would be a complete let down, so much so that it would be pointless. Your theory would only be appealing to non-murder types, which negates the value of it.

"Tough: Every human being has an unfettered right to do whatever they want with any other human being that resides within their body." — James Riley

I would take that one step further, people can do whatever they want with whatever in in their body. Sell your organs if that is your thing. Maybe your kid needs university more than you need your second kidney, your call, not mine.

Men (if we are men that is) are supposed to take an active part in the family: share the burden and not leave everything for the woman to do. — Agent Smith

Not really. Let me play it out for you:

I look like I do. My risk factors are X
She looks like she does, her risk factors are X

We have sex, and conception occurs. Nothing about me has changed. Her hormones are shifting...

a month later,

she has put on a few pounds, hormones are shifting, emotions are shifting, and her risk factors are increasing. She has added different vitamins to her diet and some foods she used to love are offensive to her now, her taste has shifted.

I look the same, I feel the same, my risk factors are the same.

Repeat that for 9 months

Just before birth she has gained 30 (or more) pounds, runs various medical risks, has stretch marks, mood swings, has been quite uncomfortable for the last 2 months, remains emotionally labile and still needs extra vitamins and has bizarre food tastes.

I am the same. No changes, just doing my thing.

At birth she is in pain, parts of her are tearing, she may need surgery, she may actually die, she may suffer a stroke. She may (likely) never return to her pre-pregnant condition. She may have post-partum depression, or worse, psychosis. She may be suicidal.

I am the same, still doing my thing.

Also, at any point in this process, I can go to Mexico and find another girl if I like, totally an option.

Tell me again how I should have a say over what happens to her.

The only qualifier I will make to this statement is that if she is using drugs/alcohol while pregnant that will harm the child I should be able to mandate her to stop until the child is born. That is a far worse crime than abortion.

Having said that, if she wants to give up the child to abortion and I (the father) want it, that should be a no brainer.

This may be a sour grapes kinda thing for me but choice is overrated. What's the point in being able to choose when you make all the bad choices? I'm going out on a limb here and say that I'd rather have no choice than have a choice and mess it up — Agent Smith

it's called learning and development. If you never make a bad call, you never learn how to make any call at all. That seems very sad, but if that's where you want to be, I know a few facilities that will take all your rights away and give you an itinerary for your life. Lots of drugs too.

I would take that one step further, people can do whatever they want with whatever in in their body. Sell your organs if that is your thing. Maybe your kid needs university more than you need your second kidney, your call, not mine. — Book273

:100: :up:

I agree, especially if the state is not willing or able to articulate a persuasive and compelling state interest. In the case of abortion, suicide, organ transplant, and other issues, I don't think any state interest can override the interests of the individual. If, however, the state can show that an activity, or failure to engage in a certain activity presents an existential threat to the state itself, or to the fundamental interests of those the state represents, then it can impose itself upon the individual. The state, just like an individual, has a right to be wrong (prohibition) but it can also then stand to be corrected. In the case of pandemics and plagues and insurgency and incitement and insurrection and, in some cases, even convenience (like keeping insurance premiums down via seat belts, smoking premiums, etc.) then the state can act.

Anyway, we have institutions and entities (courts, ACLU?, etc.) designed to winnow those questions.

organ transplant, — James Riley

We have cards that allow us to donate our organs if we wish, there are movements trying to have mandatory organ harvesting upon death, and yet it is illegal for people to sell their organs in life, when the gain from the sale may improve and potentially prolong their life. Apparently the issue is not the validity of organs relocating, just that said relocation is not allowed to benefit the person losing the organ, because that would be reasonable and we can't have that

Apparently the issue is not the validity of organs relocating, just that said relocation is not allowed to benefit the person losing the organ, because that would be reasonable and we can't have that — Book273

It might also reveal how society is failing it's constituents if a shit-ton of poor people are lining up to sell their stuff. Like students selling semen or eggs to make tuition, or houseless selling blood to eat. It would reveal what a failure certain societies are, and we definitely can't have that. :gasp:

you taste like chicken — James Riley

Some cannibals call us "long pig" so we must taste more like pork. We're probably tasty, provided we're well fed and properly cooked.

Some cannibals call us "long pig" so we must taste more like pork. We're probably tasty, provided we're well fed and properly cooked. — Bitter Crank

:lol: I stand corrected!

People have the right to privately make decisions about their own bodies. One of the evils of "pro-life" militants is to load both abortion and miscarriage with guilt (the gift that keeps on giving) and the expectation of grief. Abortion is murder, they say. Miscarriage -- which is entirely involuntary -- is equivalent to losing an infant.

Having an abortion is a serious enough decision for the woman's well-being, no doubt. But what is aborted is not yet a person -- in most cases, abortions occur in the fourth or fifth month of pregnancy. Pro-life sentiment calls for burial of a miscarriage. It is just manipulative sentimentality.

The doctrine that 'personhood' begins at conception is noxious. It makes the woman the slave of the fertilized egg, for which she is supposed to feel fulfilled, no matter the real-world circumstances of conception or consequences for her life. "Pro-life" is "anti-choice" in more ways than one. It's a life-sentence, so to speak.

It isn't just about women, either. Partnered men and women want to have successful families. Too many children is a problem the world-over, in terms of successful families where children reach adulthood and the parents are not destroyed in the process. Unlimited fecundity is a burden that poor people can not support. So, yes -- birth control, abortion, sterilization -- all are helpful remedies, and they all stand against conservative religious doctrine.

Damnation on conservative religious doctrine!!!

Damnation on conservative religious doctrine!!! — Bitter Crank

All I know is, they are lucky Jesus is the Prince of Peace or he'd come down here and slap the beejeezus out of them!

Some cannibals call us "long pig" so we must taste more like pork. We're probably tasty, provided we're well fed and properly cooked. — Bitter Crank

I heard that too!

100%

it's called learning and development. If you never make a bad call, you never learn how to make any call at all. That seems very sad, but if that's where you want to be, I know a few facilities that will take all your rights away and give you an itinerary for your life. Lots of drugs too. — Book273

Strawman I think but, given the circumstances, so what?