Free Will and Other Popular Delusions, or not?

PoeticUniverse

That may be true, but randomness also breaks the chain of Cause & Effect with an Acausal link. It's that gap in causation that may provide a way to escape from the bonds of Determinism. But, it takes intelligence and reasoning ability to take advantage of the opportunity of arbitrariness in place of necessity. :smile: — Gnomon

You're a great responder, Gnomon, very good and pleasant over the years;, so let me say 'Thanks'. I turned 74 today and have had good luck so far; the world can't seem to kill me off, not even back in Cambodia when I was an intelligence officer at rare times in the field, but was mostly in Honolulu with ladies. Now the virus can't catch me, either, nor the doomsday glacier in Antartica that may soon crumble and greatly raise the sea level. These are epic times.

Sabine Hossenfelder has been espousing Super Determinism of late, if you want to look into it, and so here we are, between its specter and the escape as the randomness option, of all the binds and rocks and hard places to be in…

Well, it seems that the great benefit of the universe is that we get to have glorious experiences, sometimes, even if we are actors portraying ourselves in a play. I've always felt in charge, and that seems to have added to the pleasure.

Jack Cummins

↪PoeticUniverse

Happy birthday and plenty of 'glorious experiences', to enable you to make more pictures and poems.

180 Proof

↪Gnomon

Cite the offense I've given. I'm sure you've misread me again, Gnomon.

↪PoeticUniverse

Happy Birthday! :party:

PoeticUniverse

Happy birthday and plenty of 'glorious experiences', to enable you to make more pictures and poems. — Jack Cummins

Thanks, Jack.

Some great scenes, music, and poem story:

PoeticUniverse

Mystical…

Miller

The rest of your post is interesting — Agent Smith

christians think something can create something. but it cant. even if a god existed he would not be able to make a creation.

what did he make it from? and where did he make it? its like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. magical thinking

something cannot come from something

we currently already have something, and logically it must be eternal and omnipresent and infinite and therefore there is no real creation. only evolution and transformation

Gnomon

I turned 74 today and have had good luck so far; the world can't seem to kill me off, — PoeticUniverse

Like you, I'm a seventh decade survivor of a world that has a million ways to kill you. I even lived through 4 years in and around VietNam. So, instead of feeling picked-on by Fate, I feel blessed by the freedom to choose my poison --- a very slow one. :wink:

Sabine Hossenfelder has been espousing Super Determinism of late, if you want to look into it, and so here we are, between its specter and the escape as the randomness option, of all the binds and rocks and hard places to be in… — PoeticUniverse

Thanks, but I'd rather not stare into the abyss of Deep Determinism. Anyway, I don't depend on erratic randomness to spring me from the inevitability of Cause & Effect. Instead, I'm always on the lookout for those tiny cracks in my dungeon that give me an opportunity to choose to use a spoon to widen them into an escape hole --- or rabbit hole (look before you leap!). Since those openings are rare, we must be ready to take advantage of every break from Fate we can get. :grimace:
Note : I googled SD, and saw that it's over my pointy little head.

Back on the topic of Free Choice -- Free Will :
I'm currently reading a novel, Ken Follett's Third Twin, that involves scientists doing twin studies to determine how much Genetics and Society (Nature & Nurture) are responsible for our personal behavior. I'm guessing that they will eventually get around to discovering how unpredictable personality quirks can emerge from those more mechanistic influences. Some identical twins display unique traits that can't be explained by genetic determinism. Could it be . . . oh I don't know . . . maybe . . . Free Will? :smile:

"Although the case for free will cannot be rigorously proven, those of us who believe in it need feel no threat from the findings of the Human Genome Initiative."
https://counterbalance.org/genetics/myth-body.html

Twins: similar and unique? :
https://www.leidenpsychologyblog.nl/articles/twins-similar-and-unique

Gnomon

Cite the offense I've given. I'm sure you've misread me again, Gnomon. — 180 Proof

I don't remember. Apparently, you've mis-read me. I don't take offense at the occasional "pissy" attitudes on this forum. I just can't take philosophical speculations into the unknown that seriously. It should be a fun tug-of-war without the warlike grimness. But, I'm aware that some posters are more rigid & fragile than me, so I use smilies and emoticons liberally, to indicate that I mean no harm, and in many cases I'm just kidding. Seriously! :joke:

Pissy : arrogantly argumentative.

Agent Smith

christians think something can create something. but it cant. even if a god existed he would not be able to make a creation.

what did he make it from? and where did he make it? its like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. magical thinking

something cannot come from something

we currently already have something, and logically it must be eternal and omnipresent and infinite and therefore there is no real creation. only evolution and transformation — Miller

So the sum total of something remains constant, eternally - what we have now is exactly the amount we had and will have but it transforms, evolves, and so on. :up:

Gnomon

I've always felt in charge, and that seems to have added to the pleasure. — PoeticUniverse

Yes, but is that feeling of being in control of your life a truism or an illusion? That is the underlying question of this thread. The arguments typically come down to siding with Science or Religion. And most world religions, especially Christianity, make human Free Will mandatory, to govern a God who holds us responsible for our ethical behavior. Since, modern Science has demoted Freedom of Will to a "persistent illusion", it would seem that morality is optional. Unless, they can find a viable substitute for an intrinsic feeling of responsibility.

Secular Humanism has rejected the universal lawmaker, and placed the burden of maintaining order -- among people who feel free to sin -- on mundane, politically divided Society. Which typically relies on fear of temporary incarceration instead of eternal incineration. Therefore, it seems that even without an all-seeing eye-in-the-sky, our sense of freedom must still be constrained by extrinsic rules, and menacing threats. So, is man-made morality more Just than just fear of divine retribution? And is Free Will compatible with the restraints of social responsibility? :cool:

"The idea of free will, the skeptics say, is a holdover from a naïve worldview that has been refuted by science, just as ghosts and spirits have been refuted."
https://bostonreview.net/articles/christian-list-has-science-refuted-free-will/

"if you are in charge, you have control over someone or something and are responsible for them."
https://www.macmillandictionary.com

"You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." ___Francis Crick,
Note -- if Free Will is innate, what is the "more than" which makes a mere network of neurons to be free from the Determinism of Causation? Perhaps, rational moral agents have become a Cause unto themselves, resulting in the freedom of Self-determinism. :chin:

PoeticUniverse

Yes, but is that feeling of being in control of your life a truism or an illusion? — Gnomon

Illusion. "More than" hasn't been found.

Were you in Vietnam fighting through the worst of it? I was at the tail end.

Gnomon

Illusion. "More than" hasn't been found. — PoeticUniverse

In my blog, I hypothesize that the "more than" is a holistic effect of causal feedback loops, and the consequent complexification-of-causation. The result of that multiplication is a holistic Cybernetic system, that is more than the sum of sensory inputs. Such a complex integrated system may have novel properties (e.g. awareness) that are not found in its parts (e.g. neurons). Those internal loops in the chain of causation, might even permit Self-Causation (autonomy, freedom).

If so, the Feeling of Freedom is not an external illusion, but an internal belief -- that's just as real as your mental model of the real world. Of course, this is a conjecture based on implications of a few brain studies. And, since the feeling is subjective, there is no objective proof that it is anything more than an illusion. So, it's true that the "more than" has not been found . . . by those looking at neuronal wiring diagrams.

However, there's also no way to empirically prove that you are Conscious, except to ask you to affirm your awareness. Likewise, if you believe you are free, you will act as-if you are in control. So, as street philosopher Dirty Harry so perceptively inquired, "you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel ~~lucky~~ free? Well, do ya, punk?". :grimace:

Cybernetic System :
Cybernetics is the study of control, communications and information processing within systems of all kind, biological, mechanical and social. Norbert Wiener(one of the founders of the subject) defined cybernetics as “the scientific study of control and communication in the animal and the machine.”[1] The word cybernetics comes from Greek word meaning “governance” or “to steer, navigate or govern”. Cybernetics formed out of – and is closely related to – the areas of systems theory, information theory, computer science, robotics, mechanical and electrical engineering. The primary object of study within cybernetics are control systems that are regulated by negative feedback loops.[2]
https://www.systemsinnovation.io/post/cybernetics
Note -- Feedback loops are used in Robotics to allow for Self-Control. So, wouldn't feedback in a human mind allow for intrinsic Self-Governance, without the necessity for extrinsic control inputs? A cybernetic organism is not free from physical laws, but from external mind-control (unless brain-washed, of course).

Feedback Loops :
The human brain is a negative feedback loop system. This means that whenever there is a difference between what a person experiences in reality that is different from the ideal set point established by this person’s brain, an urge to behave to correct the situation is created by the brain. https://www.funderstanding.com/brain/brain-biology-a-negative-feedback-loop-system/ [my bold]

Every Effect has a Cause, but not all causes come from the environment. When faced with an incongruency, humans are able to "leap" to a conclusion that seems reasonable, in light of our prior beliefs of what ought to be true. So, what seems reasonable is not just pure Logic, but can also be determined by any prejudices, premises, and presumptions in our belief system. Those inner beliefs are not in any sense physical objects. Instead, they are meta-physical causes of our mental behavior. You might say that beliefs are indirect motives of behavior (emotions, feelings), because they result from feedback loops in the chain of incoming information. Those information loops add to the complexity of a simple linear cause & effect system. But out of the apparent chaos comes the novel (butterfly) effect that we call "Free Will". The proof of the freewill pudding is in the effects of your voluntary actions. :nerd:

PoeticUniverse

that is more than the sum of sensory inputs — Gnomon

I don't think anyone is saying the sensory inputs make for the whole of the will's analysis. There's lots more going on, plus rumination is a feedback loop.

The more information the will has, the better it works. Certain information is much greater than the average info, such as the realization that being in charge is an illusion, ironically, for that lets one know all the more that some seemingly bright idea needn't be totally fallen for simply because one came up with it.

PoeticUniverse

christians think something can create something. but it cant. even if a god existed he would not be able to make a creation.

what did he make it from? and where did he make it? its like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. magical thinking

something cannot come from something

we currently already have something, and logically it must be eternal and omnipresent and infinite and therefore there is no real creation. only evolution and transformation — Miller

This post is great. There is what there is as likely the simplest partless thing which for some base reason has to move, making for waves which make for the quantum formations from its stable arrangements, not anything new and different than itself.

Agent Smith

The icescape wallpaper in the short clip above is not real. It's just an illusion that makes us happy. Could it be the same for our belief that we have free will (it's a fake sense of freedom because we need to be happy more than know the truth)?

Gnomon

I don't think anyone is saying the sensory inputs make for the whole of the will's analysis. There's lots more going on, plus rumination is a feedback loop. — PoeticUniverse

By "sensory inputs" I was referring to causes or influences from the environment. It was meant to distinguish linear causes from internal processing (ruminations) that form "feedback loops". Those non-linear processes modify the incoming ambient "energy" for the specific needs of the Self. Such internal looping is what I call "multiplying" and "complexifying" of extrinsic Information, to temporarily re-direct the flow for personal use.

That Selfish energy is what we call "Will", which is the motivation to get what we want and need. "Will" being merely the future tense of "Want". So the redirected or recycled Information/Energy is "free" in the sense that it is no longer completely extrinsically determined, but has an added Selfish purpose. Ambient Information/Energy has no purpose, but egocentric causation has the novel property of goal-directed Intention.. :smile:

PS__We are still subject to the tidal flow of energy, but unlike an Iceberg, we have an inboard motor to allow us to go against the flow . . . to some degree.

Miller

So the sum total of something remains constant, eternally — Agent Smith

ya its infinite

Agent Smith

ya its infinite — Miller

Infinite? :chin:

Miller

↪Agent Smith

reality must be eternal omnipresent and infinite and whole

it is everything and everything is it

nothing exists but it

god

Agent Smith

↪Miller

:ok: Whatever floats your boat Miller. See ya!

Miller

↪Agent Smith

perpetual motion machine

eternal recycler

Agent Smith

perpetual motion machine

eternal recycler — Miller

:up:

Miller

↪Agent Smith

there is an infinite number of me's out there in the infinite reality

and an infinite number of variations of me's and you's

Agent Smith

there is an infinite number of me's out there in the infinite reality

and an infinite number of variations of me's and you's — Miller

I don't know if I'd like that to be true. The world has enough problems with just one of me! :grin:

Miller

The world has enough problems with just one of me! — Agent Smith

go back in time and talk to yourself and you will argue with yourself and disagree with each others beliefs

PoeticUniverse

we have an inboard motor to allow us to go against the flow . . . to some degree — Gnomon

The inboard motor of neuronal analysis still does what it has to as what it was meant to do.

Fixed Will 'Poetry Slam' Discussion

Ah, in the whole you’re just afraid of being unfree,
But, hey, look, behold! There is still so much beauty!
A sublime law, indeed, else what beauty could there be?
The coin’s other side speaks—a toss up, weighted equally.

It’s from the finding of truth—not of fright,
Though determinism’s not a pretty sight.
Beauty exists either way, for there is still novelty,
But ‘determined’s opposite is an impossible currency.

Reveal

How dare you curse the freedom to be;
It’s because you are scared of He!
What greater proof of inner freedom then
Could His gift of wild flight to us send?

Really, it not of a scare that He is there,
But because ‘random’ can’t even be there,
For then on nothing would it depend—threadbare,
If it could even be, but it has no clothes to wear.

I swear I am more—that I do act freely!
Don't pass off my passions so calculatingly.
I'll let the rams butt their heads together;
One absolute position subsides for its brother!

Yes, it seems we can choose, even otherwise,
But what’s within, as the state of being wise,
Knows not the non-apparent states below—
A ‘second story’, with but one window.

One rigid mode of thought’s score
Consumes the other with folklore,
Unbending, unyielding with perfect defense,
To orchestrate life’s symphony at the song’s expense.

We’re happy to ferret out the truth;
However, when subjected to the proof,
We wish that the coin could stand on its edge,
But see that it cannot, which is knowledge.

So lets define the world and human existence
On a couple hundred years of material witness,
Or burn the measuring eye to the stake!
After all, our freedom’s what it seeks to forsake!

Evolution didn’t work by chance for us to live,
For natural selection is the scientific alternative
To Intelligent Design from something outside;
The coin of determination has no other side.

The secret is simply that a secret does exist
And no amount of data can take away this,
But this doesn’t mean a ghost in the machinery;
Perhaps the heart isn’t just a pump, the liver a refinery.

We often forget the secret, willingly,
In order to live life excitingly,
Which it still would be, either way,
As we’re still part of the play, anyway.

But of course there is a past of ‘whethers’
Through which we've been weathered;
Surely we are moved as dust from gust to gust,
But is two-twice-two as four always a must?

Math, too, is a must, and we try, as ever,
To predict a week ahead the weather,
Yet the data are to much to work with,
But indetermination measures not random’s width.

Is not an unfree will a blatant contradiction
Developed from the an ‘enlightened conviction’?
If I’ve made a choice then I have willed it,
And if it’s been willed then freedom’s fulfilled it.

This is what I mean, that the will willed one’s self,
Which is that one does not will the will itself.
The neurons vote, based on who one is;
No one else is there to answer the quiz.

And of course it’s in and of a misguided pit
To say that from the past we've distilled it.
Is not the idea of complete self-autonomy a ruse
Born from the illusion of the existentialist blues?

We distill what comes into us, too,
For it has to become part of us, new,
For mirror neurons act it out, while we are still,
Invading our sanctum and altering the will.

But of course, this is to be much expected
From a culture that lacks all mythical perspective.
‘Nonsense’ we call it, a virtue of not thinking,
From which we have long since been departing,
So now will behold in all its transparency
Beyond childish ideals of essence and archaic fantasy.

That’s close, but it’s thinking that has grown,
By science and logic informed from reason sown,
In place of feeling, sensation, wishes, and the pleas
To have the universe be what it ought to be.

Do not distort with a desire for meaning.
Oh, the babe, lets leave the child a’weening,
But I ask of you: have you not tried in-betweening?

There are two ways of living, at times merging,
One of just state of being, of its only showing,
And one of the being plus the under-knowing,
Though when with wife, we dwell not on hormoning.

And in that same breath we say all is forgiven;
Why hold humans responsible, leading to derision?
Of course an eye for an eye was an unjust decision
Well, we have a system that draws a line between
A crime of passion and a thought-out, sought-for infliction.

“The universe made me do it,” says the accused,
And the Judge replies, “Well, this does excuse,
But I still have to sentence you to the pen,
Until the universe can’t make you do it again,”

Why must it be a question of absolute freedom
As complete randomness over an unbending system
That structures everything that ever was, is, and will be,
Right down to the elementary structures of incomprehensibility.

What is set forth in the beginning
Is ever of itself continuing,
Restrained by time, yes, but unfolding,
For there is nothing else inputting.

I may understand why this has to be;
I have felt the rapture of black and white toxicity,
But why subjugate all possibility for novelty?

It will still be novel, even such as a new parking lot,
For the dopamine neurotransmitters will stir the pot.
New is still new, on the grand tour through life,
But do some predicting, to then avoid some strife.

Can such a thought hope to cast a wrench into these gears,
A tool so heavy that dissuades all of our fears?
Will all order and inertia be torn asunder?
Will we have giant ants wearing top hats over,
With all rationality considered a blunder?

The truth was not sought to drop a spanner into the works,
But turns out to grant more of compassion’s perks
For those afflicted with the inability for learning,
We eliminating great annoyances burning.

Am I simply a delusional puddle here,
Perceiving just my liquid perimeter,
As I think to myself I can control
The very rain that expands my rule.
And the humidity that thins.
Should I condemn as that which sins?

There are no sins, but just destiny’s fate,
Which even includes one’s learnings of late.
We are whirl-pools, of the same oscillations,
Some lasting, but of the same instantiations.

Agent Smith

go back in time and talk to yourself and you will argue with yourself and disagree with each others beliefs — Miller

I might, I just might!

Miller

↪Agent Smith

every 5 years you are a different person who would not aggree with the previous one

Agent Smith

every 5 years you are a different person who would not aggree with the previous one — Miller

Fascinating! I was an atheist a decade ago, now I'm an agnostic, veering towards theism. I used to think religion was bullshit but now I feel that was my ignorance getting the better of me.

Miller

I used to think religion was bullshit — Agent Smith

its half true

Free Will and Other Popular Delusions, or not?

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