Yes, we do. We also have a malaria crisis to deal with, an obesity crisis, an opioid crisis, an AIDS crisis, a poverty crisis, a TB crisis, a diarrhoea crisis, a child labour crisis... — Isaac
I honestly wouldn't want you as a pandemic manager, — jorndoe
You said...
we're losing the battle of education, knowledge, facts, information, communication, etc.
— Xtrix
...then said...
Our powerful corporate and political (but I repeat myself) masters, through their ownership and control of media and their infiltration of the education system, have really done a number on the populace.
— Xtrix
Since the most powerful group in that list are the pharmaceutical companies themselves, who are pushing the pro-vaccine agenda. So it's hard to see how you're blaming them for ignorance (wherein I assume - perhaps wrongly - you're referring to anti-vaccine sentiment) — Isaac
My point wasn’t about the anti-vax movement. It was about the divided, confused, and completely irrational state of affairs we’re living in. Vaccine irrationality, like election irrationality, is but one symptom. I do indeed blame the powerful for this — they’ve created this monster that they can no longer control. As I said before, it’s due to 40 years of policies that have decimated the populace and years of brainwashing/cultivating irrational attitudes. — Xtrix
The idea that 20-30% of people's failing to take the vaccine is problematic is something you've repeated because it's been told to you by government agencies and media. — Isaac
Corporate media and social media (but I repeat myself) are leading more and more people into conspiracies and bogus beliefs and into silos. That is clear.
— Xtrix
... you can't then use the information you've acquired from the very sources you've just accused of misleading, to argue that they're not (on this occasion) misleading. — Isaac
The data you're basing such assessments on comes from the very organisations you've just indicted in leading us astray. — Isaac
I see no reason to distrust the figures from hospitals and medical establishments on this particular issue. — Xtrix
There's no contradiction. They've simply created a monster, as I said before, that now they cannot subdue. — Xtrix
I'm not using information from the sources I mentioned. I don't get my information from social media or corporate media (NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CBS, etc). — Xtrix
But even if I did, there's a real difference between straight reporting and opinion sections. "Commentators" like Sean Hannity et al. are far more influential than the Fox Newsroom. Take a look at the Wall Street Journal, as well. A very good newspaper -- yet their editorials are to the right of Attila the Hun. — Xtrix
I never accused medical experts of leading us astray. I've accused the corporate media for leading many people astray — Xtrix
I see no reason to distrust the figures from hospitals and medical establishments on this particular issue.
— Xtrix
Yes. That's clear from what you've already written, but since you're not the Oracle of Delphi we expect reasoning or justification for your beliefs. Its a discussion forum. It gets a bit boring if it's just an exchange of pronouncements. I'm not interested in your opinion, I'm interested in your reasons. — Isaac
There's no contradiction. They've simply created a monster, as I said before, that now they cannot subdue.
— Xtrix
Again, reasons please, not just opinion. — Isaac
to.
I'm not using information from the sources I mentioned. I don't get my information from social media or corporate media (NBC, ABC, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CBS, etc).
— Xtrix
So where do you get your information from? — Isaac
So corporate media is prepared to steer society off a cliff, encourage mass deaths and leave no habitable earth for our grandchildren, but apparently infusing actual news stories with bias is one step too far for them? Who are these people? — Isaac
But the data you're basing your conclusions on doesn't come from medical experts. It comes from the government and the media. — Isaac
I'll try and make the distinction really simple for you... — Isaac
I really don't know how much more gently I can break this to you, but governments lie. — Isaac
Filters largely controlled by corporate or political interests, filters with their own personal biases. — Isaac
On February 6, 2014, General Motors (GM) recalled about 800,000 of its small cars due to faulty ignition switches, which could shut off the engine while the vehicle was in motion and thereby prevent the airbags from inflating. The company continued to recall more of its cars over the next several months, resulting in nearly 30 million cars recalled worldwide and paid compensation for 124 deaths. The fault had been known to GM for at least a decade prior to the recall being declared. As part of a Deferred Prosecution Agreement, GM agreed to forfeit $900 million to the United States. — General Motors ignition switch recalls
Because there’s no evidence whatever to believe these numbers are inaccurate. — Xtrix
I think we've got to start moving to that, otherwise as infection becomes endemic we are going to be frightening ourselves with very high numbers that actually don t translate into disease burden. — All-Party Parliamentary Group on Coronavirus - Professor Hunter.
Reasons for what? — Xtrix
From scientific journals and medical journals, mostly. The Lancet, Science, Nature, etc. I also read the Times, WSJ, etc. — Xtrix
Hospitals are government and media? Medical journals are government and media? — Xtrix
The reality is you’re as much a victim of the info-demic as the suckers who believe the election was stolen, repeating exactly the same lines and “challenging” sources and the very nature of truth and facts just to maintain their conditioned beliefs. — Xtrix
Because there’s no evidence whatever to believe these numbers are inaccurate.
— Xtrix
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356756711_Latest_statistics_on_England_mortality_data_suggest_systematic_mis-categorisation_of_vaccine_status_and_uncertain_effectiveness_of_Covid-19_vaccination
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355437113_Discrepancies_and_inconsistencies_in_UK_Government_datasets_compromise_accuracy_of_mortality_rate_comparisons_between_vaccinated_and_unvaccinated
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/we-could-be-vastly-overestimating-the-death-rate-for-covid-19-heres-why/ — Isaac
None of those publications record death rates. — Isaac
Hospitals are government and media? Medical journals are government and media?
— Xtrix
So you're polling hospitals directly yourself? And yes, journals are media. — Isaac
Uh huh, and "thankfully you’re here to weed it all out for us." — Isaac
would you actually like to join Strang and his many colleagues around the world?
You had mentioned the number of people vaccinated. These articles have nothing to say about that. They’re talking about vaccinated and unvaccinated death rates. — Xtrix
The idea that 20-30% of people's failing to take the vaccine is problematic is something you've repeated because it's been told to you by government agencies and media. — Isaac
Polling hospitals myself? Is this a serious question? — Xtrix
Journals are not corporate media — Xtrix
I simply encourage people to listen to the science and to medical experts. — Xtrix
I take the Lancet seriously — Xtrix
do I have to repeat again?
the scandals, failures, conspiracies, malaria, poverty, General Motors, ...
the task at hand (like what Strang and colleagues around the world does) — jorndoe
No. I mentioned (bolded for your reading pleasure).
The idea that 20-30% of people's failing to take the vaccine is problematic is something you've repeated because it's been told to you by government agencies and media.
— Isaac — Isaac
Your argument that it's a problem (the low vaccination rates), relies on studies and data produced by exactly the corporations and governments (and presented in the exact media) you've condemned for 'leading us astray'. — Isaac
You trusted governments, media and corporations to do those things for you and decided to believe the results you were thereby handed. — Isaac
Yes. you said you trusted the hospital data. I assume you're polling them yourself. Otherwise it's not the hospital data you're trusting is it, it's the data of whomever tells you they've polled the hospitals. — Isaac
You were earlier imploring that we not 'do our own research'. Now you're saying we should listen directly to the experts. Which is it? — Isaac
I seriously doubt you have even close to the expertise to judge the accuracy of an article in the Lancet. — Isaac
This idea that you're just impartially constructing an opinion by listening, unfiltered, to the experts is transparently bullshit. — Isaac
You choose the experts you're going to listen to on the basis of whether they're supporting the message your politics inclines you to believe. — Isaac
Perhaps it's the word "stupid" you object to -- fine. Irrational is better. Many (though admittedly not all, but i would argue MOST) of that 20/30% are making these decisions irrationally, partly based on the consumption of the media I mentioned before — Xtrix
If you consider science and medicine somehow part of corporate and social media (which I what I was talking about) or governments, fine. I don't. If we discount all science that is funded by corporations or government, we're ruling out a lot indeed. — Xtrix
I think it's important to be skeptical — Xtrix
it's in the interest of corporations and governments to get facts, to really know what's going on — Xtrix
Here we're back to where I think we discussed consensus -- and I argue in favor of following the consensus, particularly if it's overwhelming. — Xtrix
You were earlier imploring that we not 'do our own research'. Now you're saying we should listen directly to the experts. Which is it? — Isaac
When did I say that? — Xtrix
that frustration, even borderline contempt, really is rooted in wanting to see human beings thrive rather than suffer and die. — Xtrix
I wouldn't mistake this flaw as having much to say about my analysis, beliefs, principles, and conclusions. — Xtrix
But this assumes I'm in the two-party trap which I've already myself condemned. — Xtrix
Hospitals are government and media? — Xtrix
...and the 80/70%? You think they've made their decision rationally because...? It happens to be the same as yours? — Isaac
Corporate science says everyone must take the vaccine and you unquestioningly fall in line. They say 'jump' you say 'how high?' — Isaac
So? That doesn't therefore mean it's in their interests to provide those facts to us, unfiltered. What they themselves benefit from knowing and what they benefit from us thinking are two completely different things. — Isaac
Where's your impartial, non-media, evidence of the 'overwhelming consensus' you keep referring to? — Isaac
I assume then, you're in favour of people doing their own research? — Isaac
When someone like Vinay Prasad speaks out against promoting vaccines for children, he's obviously concerned about the suffering of the children. What makes you think you've the monopoly on concern? — Isaac
No insisting that any mention of the word 'politics' must refer to your party ties is what assumes that. — Isaac
Hospitals are government and media?
— Xtrix
Absolutely. — Book273
Oh but I forget. There's a crisis on, so we all must pretend that hospitals are all run by Dr. Kildare. He wouldn't massage any figures would he? — Isaac
it corresponds to the consensus of experts — Xtrix
I'm listening to science. — Xtrix
listening to the consensus — Xtrix
The science and medical consensus — Xtrix
There is overwhelming consensus — Xtrix
Where's your impartial, non-media, evidence of the 'overwhelming consensus' you keep referring to? — Isaac
I suppose. I have no idea what political factor you're referring to, in this case. — Xtrix
We should listen to experts — Xtrix
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